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Fantasy => General Discussion => Topic started by: Paul Campbell on September 25, 2009, 02:56:07 pm

Title: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 25, 2009, 02:56:07 pm
I am a member of precisely one internet forum.

This one.

I don't blog. I don't do Facebook, or MySpace, or LiveJournal, or Bebo. Or Twitter for that matter, thank you very much.

My absolute main motivation for hosting the Glasgow Open Night back in June this year was to get people the frak away from their friggin' computer monitors. To get them out there, to get them interacting. A bit of old-fashioned face-to-face human conversation (no wonder I love Fantasycon so much!).

It came as no surprise to me when Stephen Jones, in Best New Horror 19, described the Shocklines forum as "seditious".

I was, however, surprised to find Jones listing the Vault of Evil forum in his list of recommended online sites to visit at the back of Best New Horror 20. I made my own disparaging comments of the Vault of Evil forum within my review of Michael Kelly & Carol Weekes' novel Ouroboros in the Winter '08/'09 issue of Prism.

My opition of Vault of Evil hasn't changed, as this randomly and recently accessed thread ably demonstrates:

http://vaultofevil.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newsdusk&action=display&thread=3208
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 25, 2009, 04:03:45 pm
Some sour grapes there! But we've all moaned when a film we think is rubbish wins the Oscars. Does it make a difference when we know the people involved? Should it?

To counter one specific point, as I mentioned at the AGM, voting levels on the shortlist were much higher than on the longlist, as we hoped they would be. More votes, fewer people to vote for - from that you can deduce that every winner had to earn its spurs.

I know you've got your reasons for shunning Facebook, Paul, but I tell you, there's a thriving network of BFS people on there, chatting every day.  :D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 25, 2009, 04:34:46 pm
I know you've got your reasons for shunning Facebook, Paul, but I tell you, there's a thriving network of BFS people on there, chatting every day.  :D

I'm sure there is. Not interested. If I want to talk to someone I want to, oh gee I don't know, call me 19th century old fashioned -

- oh yeah: I want to talk to them.

Not to my friggin' Dell monitor.  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Wayne Mook on September 26, 2009, 01:46:09 am
Don't blame you Paul. The whole damn thing is over rated.

Have to admit I prefer meeting people face to face.

Wayne.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: bleugh! on September 26, 2009, 10:40:02 am
Paul, I must admit I'm curious how you came to comment on the Vault of Evil in your review of Ouroboros...
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 26, 2009, 04:06:06 pm

My opition of Vault of Evil hasn't changed, as this randomly and recently accessed thread ably demonstrates:

http://vaultofevil.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newsdusk&action=display&thread=3208

I'm not sure what you mean by quoting that thread. I was complaining about someone calling a book 'shockingly bad' without context. And I feel Skunsworth and I won the argument.

 :) And they only have to read my review of the Single-Author Collection BFS winner to see why that book was up there with the best of them, the first prerequiste for it being there to be voted on in the first place.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: allybird on September 26, 2009, 04:13:14 pm
In a week where there have been heated debates on women in horror - and now this?
 
And very, unprofessional behaviour from Mark Samuels.
Mark Samuels on the Vault of Evil ...'Are you honestly of the opinion that Alison's collection deserved to win on merit ahead of the other contenders, and not that it won mainly for other reasons?'

As for  Johnny Mains. He set against me last year on that board and his post was so abusive he had to remove it himself in the end.
 
And the person commenting on the The Caul Bearer. It was obviously set in the 19th century. I don't know what story is being referred to but it doesn't sound like mine.'
 
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: sandranorval on September 26, 2009, 04:49:45 pm
Gosh, I've only just joined and I'm hoping it's not always like this!

Anyway, I wanted to stand a little in defence of the internet. If you use it as a tool, not a life replacement it is brilliant. Too many people get carried away and disappear from the real world in favour of a virtual one. This isn't a good thing.

Using the networking sites should be seen as just that, networking. It's a way to have discussions with a wide variety of people before meeting them for the first time which means you already know a bit about each other.

The downside is that anyone can set up a blog or join a forum and the trick is to figure out who is worth paying attention to and who isn't. That list will be different for each individual but that is what is fascinating about humanity isn't it? You could consider it as life, but in writing.

But then, what do I know?  ;D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Ellen Datlow on September 26, 2009, 04:53:45 pm
I don't know if Mark Samuels comes here much, but he's always claiming that favoritism wins awards, that no one who receives awards deserves them, blah blah blah. I  wonder if he indeed realizes that this just sounds like sour grapes.

I was in the field for over 20 years before winning the Hugo award. I might have personally been unhappy about not winning but I never ever whined about it in public or said that others only won because of popularity, cronyism, bias, or anything else. It's rude and makes one look like an ass.

So please, enough already. Suck it up!
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 27, 2009, 07:53:29 am
Paul, I must admit I'm curious how you came to comment on the Vault of Evil in your review of Ouroboros...

I trawled the site for several months or so last year. It was my opinion that if - as seems the case on the vault of Evil forum - the pinnacle of horror consists of crabs and Guy N. Smith and that the genre died sometime around 1979, wouldn't be interested in a novel like Ouroboros.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 27, 2009, 07:56:47 am

My opition of Vault of Evil hasn't changed, as this randomly and recently accessed thread ably demonstrates:

http://vaultofevil.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newsdusk&action=display&thread=3208

I'm not sure what you mean by quoting that thread. I was complaining about someone calling a book 'shockingly bad' without context. And I feel Skunsworth and I won the argument.

 :) And they only have to read my review of the Single-Author Collection BFS winner to see why that book was up there with the best of them, the first prerequiste for it being there to be voted on in the first place.


I'm sure you do indeed feel that yourself and Simon Kurt Unsworth 'won' the arguement. But then, Des, as the entire infantile forum is beneath you both, where exactly is the sense of achievement?  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 27, 2009, 08:15:21 am
Quote

I'm sure you do indeed feel that yourself and Simon Kurt Unsworth 'won' the arguement. But then, Des, as the entire infantile forum is beneath you both, where exactly is the sense of achievement?  ;)

Hey, it's got some wonderful archive materiial (and some nice people like 'Demonik', John L Probert, Craig Herbertson etc) , and including my Small Press Ark (20 pages) here:
http://vaultofevil.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=indie&action=display&thread=672
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 27, 2009, 08:52:11 am
Quote

I'm sure you do indeed feel that yourself and Simon Kurt Unsworth 'won' the arguement. But then, Des, as the entire infantile forum is beneath you both, where exactly is the sense of achievement?  ;)

Hey, it's got some wonderful archive materiial (and some nice people like 'Demonik', John L Probert, Craig Herbertson etc) , and including my Small Press Ark (20 pages) here:
http://vaultofevil.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=indie&action=display&thread=672

Indeed. Stand corrected. Must have missed that amongst the deluge of juvenile pigs baying.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: LouM on September 27, 2009, 12:18:50 pm
Goodness me: I just read through the thread on that other board.
 
I've been pretty active online for years now: I think the first forum I joined was back in 2001, or thereabouts, and I've been a member of a variety of them - and a mod & admin on one (sadly now defunct, and noIdidnotdeleteitbyaccidentbeforeyouask!) - ever since. Some have come & gone, some are still around: it's very much in their nature.

The one consistent problem I've had with them is that there are people out there who use the fact they're sitting at a keyboard as an excuse for (at best) bad manners, and (at worst) personal attacks and grossly inappropriate behaviour - I've seen a fair amount of "I'm entitled to my opinion and no-one can tell me otherwise, and I intend to make sure everyone hears it!" over the years.... regardless of how balanced that opinion might be. Generally, though, it's tended to be from teenagers as opposed to adults. Go figure.

Fortunately for me, in my experience these types have always been in the minority, and in contrast I've made some very good friends via forums and boards online.

It's one thing to say that perhaps you thought another book (or film, or show or whatever) should have won an award, or to say that something isn't to your personal taste, but I don't think anything really deserves the kind of approach there - let alone "Bull Running for Girls"!
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: CarolineC on September 27, 2009, 02:18:24 pm
Quote

I'm sure you do indeed feel that yourself and Simon Kurt Unsworth 'won' the arguement. But then, Des, as the entire infantile forum is beneath you both, where exactly is the sense of achievement?  ;)

Hey, it's got some wonderful archive materiial (and some nice people like 'Demonik', John L Probert, Craig Herbertson etc) , and including my Small Press Ark (20 pages) here:
http://vaultofevil.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=indie&action=display&thread=672

Er ... I'm still on the Vault forum too, folks. * raises hand a little sheepishly *  But I don't post much there now since the bust-up last year. I think the problem then was that there was an "us versus them" quarrel between the killer crabs/dogs/pigs/cats/locust lovers and the people who thought there was some really good horror writing going on nowadays (me, Des, Ally, Troo, and a few others). The former won in a way, so I've withdrawn from participating to a large extent as there isn't much of interest to me there now, though there's still some good stuff on there worth looking at (Des' cover ark being a prime example).

But I have a feeling this whole row - particularly aimed at Ally - is just a bit of a hangover and sour grapes from last year's row.

As folks here and elsewhere have said, it's fine to give a reasoned opinion why you don't agree with a book winning an award, or why you think something else was better, but the kind of vitriolic posts by some people there just don't do those people any favours at all.  :-\

Ally - don't let them get to you.  :-*
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 27, 2009, 02:30:58 pm
I agree with Caroline.

Mark wasn't part of that 'war', however, as I recall.

I feel sorry for Mark to some extent, as we all say things on sites on the spur of the moment - which we regret or express wrongly..

Also he has said recently (and publicly) he hasn't been fully fit.  If that's still the case, Mark, get well soon.
des
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: allybird on September 27, 2009, 03:47:31 pm
No - Des. He has done it year after year. A little about the Shocklines post August 2008 is on the Ramsey board.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: CarolineC on September 27, 2009, 05:07:17 pm
>>Mark wasn't part of that 'war', however, as I recall.<<

Ah, no, I don't think he was, come to think of it. But I assumed allthingshorror's post was just a part of that again (which is why I totally ignored the remark to start with and haven't bothered to get involved in the "discussion" there).

But, yes, it's a shame if Mark is giving himself bad press through no fault of his own, through feeling out of sorts, or whatever.

There really shouldn't be this kind of "badmouthing" going on - it's just plain silly and childish. We're all on the same side, so to speak. It's very sad to see this happening really.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: FranklinMarsh on September 28, 2009, 11:42:32 am
I'd like to point out that not all of the Vault is (ahem) infantile. One of its primary functions was to document as many British Horror Anthologies as possible. Taking the Pan Books Of Horror Stories as a starting point, these anthologies would include all manner of stories and authors. I believe Mr Campbell himself commented on the fact that later editions became little more than excuses for sadism.
A few of us, perhaps of a kicking against the pricks bent, decided to venerate tomes of a deliriously trashy type, the sort of horror (and other) books looked down upon by the great and good.
Surely Jonny is entitled to his opinion? He didn't like the book. He said so. What's so wrong about that?
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 28, 2009, 12:03:10 pm
I believe Mr Campbell himself commented on the fact that later editions became little more than excuses for sadism.

Did I? Remarkable. Especially as I've never been a member of the Vault. Of course, there couldn't possibly be any other person in the country with the archaic obscure surname of 'Campbell'.

By all means, fall to your knees and give praise at the altar of killer crabs/dogs/pigs/cats/locust. But take off the rose-tinted glasses, please? Next you'll be quoting Smith, Saul and Hutson alongside James, Eliot and Milton.

And there's no need to bash recent horror fiction just because its covers and contents aren't dripping radioactive gloop.

After all, as I pointed out elsewhere today on another "General Discussion" thread, the sub-genre of Paranormal Romance is doing a good enough job in itself of killing off the horror section of our High Street bookshops without we ourselves chipping in with axes and chainsaws and nail-guns to give it a hand.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 28, 2009, 12:52:56 pm
There is fine balance in all arguments. We should not be polarised here.

A timely note from Joel here:
http://www.knibbworld.com/campbell-cgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=36765#POST36765
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: FranklinMarsh on September 28, 2009, 01:00:15 pm
I believe Mr Campbell himself commented on the fact that later editions became little more than excuses for sadism.

Did I? Remarkable. Especially as I've never been a member of the Vault. Of course, there couldn't possibly be any other person in the country with the archaic obscure surname of 'Campbell'.

By all means, fall to your knees and give praise at the altar of killer crabs/dogs/pigs/cats/locust. But take off the rose-tinted glasses, please? Next you'll be quoting Smith, Saul and Hutson alongside James, Eliot and Milton.

And there's no need to bash recent horror fiction just because its covers and contents aren't dripping radioactive gloop.

After all, as I pointed out elsewhere today on another "General Discussion" thread, the sub-genre of Paranormal Romance is doing a good enough job in itself of killing off the horror section of our High Street bookshops without we ourselves chipping in with axes and chainsaws and nail-guns to give it a hand.


I forgot to type the word Ramsey (too much radioactive gloop) - apologies to both Mr Campbells, neither of whom have been members of the Vault. Incidentally Smith and Hutson are oft quoted by myself. I've never read the other three.
I don't bash recent horror fiction because I've never read any. I don't think Mr Mains was bashing recent horror fiction, just one particular book he'd read and didn't like.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: allybird on September 28, 2009, 01:13:19 pm
Des - Mark Samuels should apologise, publicly to me, and to the British Fantasy Society for undermining the awards.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 28, 2009, 02:09:44 pm
There is fine balance in all arguments. We should not be polarised here.

A timely note from Joel here:
http://www.knibbworld.com/campbell-cgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=36765#POST36765


Joel Lane:
Quote
the Internet is no good for people. It represents a deterioration in social skills and language use. People should talk. The other day I saw two youngsters walking down the road, having a conversation, with their voices, and even looking at each other while they were doing it. I wondered if they belonged to some kind of retro historical society.

What Joel said!

Forget the 'cooling off' period, Des: the solution is simple - nix our computer monitors, grab our coats and catch a taxi/bus/train and let's all head to the pub/cafe/restaurant. You know, I originally didn't know if I was going to make it along to the Eibonvale Press book launch (featuring Allen Ashley's mammoth collection Once and Future Cities which I'm currently reading) this coming Thursday in Glasgow's Waterstones... but now I'm going to make a damn point of it, just so as I can experience some good old fashioned human conversation. And as it's likely there will be such sellar guys there as Ian Hunter, Jim Steel, Neil Williamson and Hal Duncan, it's pretty much a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 28, 2009, 02:19:59 pm
- nix our computer monitors, grab our coats and catch a taxi/bus/train and let's all head to the pub/cafe/restaurant.

Agree completely.
But logistics, health, money etc. can prevent that for people.
Meanwhile, for good or ill, we have all got to 'know' each other on this screen...
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: FranklinMarsh on September 28, 2009, 02:25:19 pm
James, Eliot and Milton.


By the way, was that Henry or M R James? I have read Casting The Runes and A Haunted Dolls House.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: johnny mains on September 28, 2009, 03:53:12 pm
My name is Johnny Mains and I'm the one who started the post at the VoE forum. It's been interesting to see how that initial post has evolved, encompassing three threads and has filtered into blogs etc. Not my intention, but these things happen.

I run a website. It's www.allthingshorror.co.uk. On it are some reviews. So for want of a better word, I call myself a reviewer. Doesn't make me a particularly good one, but I try to the best of my ability. I've reviewed a few books, a few films. I pick and choose what I want to, and review it when I want to. My feelings on Allyson Bird's collection, have up until that post, been kept private.

I had toyed with the idea of reviewing the book for the website, but thought that my comments would be left best unsaid after the incident on the VoE forum where people, including myself were having a pop at Allyson and others for blatant and excessive self-promotion of new works - when the site was predominantly aimed at all the 70's and 80's crap that I love so much. The situation resovled itself when Allyson and others left the forum. The site has evolved since, and newer works have filtered in and have a place.

As stated on the other thread, I met Allyson at the BFS Poe shindig, where I had a small chat with her, with the understanding that the incident had been put to bed, and by way of smoking the pipe of peace bought from her a copy of Bull Running. I started reading it on the train home that day with aims to writing an honest review on the book and finished it a couple of days later.

I was sad to see that a lady with clearly a lot of drive and energy had put more effort into her promotional skills than into her writing skills. Sure, the book a couple of  nice bits to it, but my main feeling of the book is now known. And I stand by that, and will stand by that. The book, is now no longer in my possession - I gave it to someone to read with the words 'You Have Been Warned.' I still haven't heard back from him if he's read it or not.

When the book was shortlisted I gave myself an all-knowing smile and said to myself, 'Ach, she'll never win.' Then she did. I was shocked, but not really that surprised.

She should be applauded for winning with her debut collection, but only if that win WASN'T due to excessive promotion, back rubbing and all of the other love-in's that go hand in hand with incestuous forums - (we all make 'friends' on these places and we like to feel we can help out whenever. It's that little selfish gene in us that makes us feel good by helping out someone else. And maybe getting a little favour returned in the future if the need arises) if that is the case, then Allyson should apologise to the BFS for bringing the awards into disrepute.

But why should I care? I'm not a member of the BFS, granted - but have given serious thoughts to joining it. What I have seen though - through months of watching this forum are people who tiptoe past each other, scared to say something out of place unless they are tagged as being 'not one of us'. Do you want characters here? Do you want diversity? Then let them have a voice, even if you don't agree with them. Instead of calling them 'unprofessional' - understand that they obviously feel very passionate about a genre that they are very heavily invested in, and only care about where the genre is going.

Who wants to be a part of a clique that only applauds sub-standard works of 'horror' or whatever other banner you care to put it under?  I want to be involved in a clique where only the finest works are recognised and applauded, and on the day Allyson's collection was not that finest work. Nepotism is great and good when it works well. When it goes wrong, you end up with this middle class, pretentious outrage that we currently find ourselves in.

I could be wrong. Allyson could break out into the mainstream with her talent and prove to the world that she has what it takes. I wish her every  success in doing so, but when you stand her work alongside noted female writers such as Sarah Pinborough, Tanith Lee, Mandy Slater, and going back to luminaries such as Mary Danby and Catherine Gleason- it is woefully lacking in style and substance and I feel that she will struggle.

Oh, and as this is my first post - hiya everyone.


Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 28, 2009, 04:02:23 pm
I, for one, think this is a straightforward conflict of taste - not politics at all.

I stand by what I say and demonstrate on the VoE thread.  I voted for Meloy's book, but thought there were several contenders (Bird's included) who could easily have won on merit. My linked review of the Bird book is testimony of this stance.

I do agree, however, with Johhny, on the rich tapestry of views in life  - and nobody should be hung.
des
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: johnny mains on September 28, 2009, 04:39:32 pm
I, for one, think this is a straightforward conflict of taste - not politics at all.

You are correct. :)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Ellen Datlow on September 28, 2009, 04:53:59 pm
It should be a matter of taste, but it becomes politics if one argues (as some have done) that something won because of favoritism, too much self promotion (whatever that means), or some other reason other than that the voters felt the winner was what they liked best.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 28, 2009, 05:03:39 pm
Agreed, Ellen.
des
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 28, 2009, 05:23:30 pm
She should be applauded for winning with her debut collection, but only if that win WASN'T due to excessive promotion, back rubbing and all of the other love-in's that go hand in hand with incestuous forums - (we all make 'friends' on these places and we like to feel we can help out whenever. It's that little selfish gene in us that makes us feel good by helping out someone else. And maybe getting a little favour returned in the future if the need arises) if that is the case, then Allyson should apologise to the BFS for bringing the awards into disrepute.
...
Oh, and as this is my first post - hiya everyone.

Hi! Sorry for the confusion earlier - as Des said, I was indeed referring to Mark Samuels' comments when mentioning sour grapes, and your comments when saying we've all slated Oscar winners. I can see how doing both in the same paragraph could confuse.

Maybe it's worth mentioning that most BFS members seem to be completely oblivious of the forums - half the people who do regularly post on here aren't even members! So I don't think Allyson's win is down to her behaviour on this forum or any other.

I think it just comes down to one thing: taking her book to FantasyCon last year and selling loads of copies. Once the book was in the hands of a lot of members, that put it in the running. But people wouldn't vote for it if they hadn't enjoyed it.

I don't think any of this brings the awards into disrepute. They are voted for by the members, and the members vote for the best of the books they have read. That's a flaw, in that outstanding books that don't appeal to (or haven't been read by) the bulk of our members won't do well (like Yiddish Policemen last year, or Song of Time this year), but also a strength, in that we know exactly who picked each winner - our members are accountable for the choices they make.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 28, 2009, 07:05:16 pm
Gee, I was hoping when I started up the When a Sub-Genre kills a Genre (http://www.britishfantasysociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=2158.0) thread earlier today on the "General Discussion" page that it would have killed this thread.

Guess not.

Sounds to me like we're all in need of a good ale!  ;D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: johnny mains on September 28, 2009, 07:27:47 pm
Have to ask...why would you want to kill a thread that you started Paul? 

Anyhoo, I found your comments about Vault rather entertaining by the way. It almost sounds like you suffer from 'acute' horror snobbery. A cursed disease, I'm sure. In its defence, the Vault for all of its sins is a valuable research tool, with thousands of cover scans, contents listings (where anthologies are concerned) and information on the publishing industry that without which, small presses and the stuff you now take for granted, would never have existed.

So for the minor infantile shenanigans that are abound, who gives a hoot? It's a gathering of people who love the genre who talk about anything and everything under the sun. Maybe you don't like the forum, because you're not centre of attention there with your big blacked out words?

Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 28, 2009, 07:40:32 pm
I found your comments about Vault rather entertaining by the way. It almost sounds like you suffer from 'acute' horror snobbery.

Far from it; indeed, my rails against the pretentious depths to which some of horror's 'mood fiction' has descended is so legendary that it got me banned from reviewing the Black Static periodical for the BFS's newsletter, Prism.  :D

So, anyway Johnny, you up for that pint or not?  ;D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 28, 2009, 08:04:34 pm
And if further proof that I'm not a horror snob is needed, I love the Robinson 'Mammoth' books just as much as any of the guys and gals over on the Vault of Evil site:

(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh282/gritbooks/STA72765.jpg)

BTW  I was going to put 'Robinson' in bold letters, but I know now Johnny that you're rather adverse to those "big blacked out words"!  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: sandranorval on September 28, 2009, 08:32:50 pm
It seems, Paul that you only like truly horrific horror. I'm still quaking at the site of the little grey bear in a giraffe costume  :o

Sandra  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 28, 2009, 08:36:03 pm
I love the Robinson 'Mammoth' books just as much as any of the guys and gals over on the Vault of Evil site:


I'm in 3 of those on the top shelf.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: johnny mains on September 28, 2009, 08:40:47 pm
...I get mentioned in one of them.......  :D

Don't partake in Booze Paul, but I sure like a glass of orange juice every now and again. How do I upload pics on here?
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Peter Coleborn on September 28, 2009, 08:51:54 pm
 Paul -- there's space for another two shelves on that wall. You are slipping, my man  :)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: johnny mains on September 28, 2009, 10:50:48 pm
I see your Mammoths and raise you with this lot....  ;D


(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z272/johnnyelvis/DSCF2855.jpg)

(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z272/johnnyelvis/DSCF2857.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: iamacanadian on September 29, 2009, 05:45:21 am
I am a member of the BFS, I would have to take a aeroplane to the pub to join most of you lot, I did vote in both the long and short list ballots, but am completely incapable of making an informed decision about whose book is best as I am entirely illiterate (which makes being an Editor a tricky thing, I can tell you). I can't even tell what these words I'm typing say!

Someone help me! Please!

Oh yes: nearly forgot.

What's this here 'in-tar-net' everyone's rabbiting on about these days? It doesn't involve computers, does it? I hates those, I does!
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: marksamuels on September 29, 2009, 11:05:50 am
Hello, my name's Mark Samuels...
 
I suppose I should make some sort of response regarding the fuss that's blown up over the remarks over on the Vault of Evil about Allyson's book, BULL RUNNING FOR GIRLS.
 
(1) The "oh it's all sour grapes" charge.
 
This has no bearing on the central point I made, namely: that Allyson's book was not a worthy winner, in terms of its intrinsic literary merit, of the BFS Best Collection award. As I've stated previously, I expected not to win. It's on record. Go and look at my blog. Had Paul Melloy, or Gary McMahon, or Stephen King won, I would not have felt so strongly as to make an adverse comment.
 
Constantly repeating the charge "it's sour grapes" until you hope it sticks is just Bulverism, & nothing more. I have been nominated four times in the past, and not won, but the winners in those previous instances were of a calibre where any fair-minded nominee could easily accept the result. The "sour grapes" charge is simply a means of deflecting the argument away from a discussion of Allyson's book and claiming any criticism I make is biased at source, irrespective of a reasoned consideration of the points raised.
 
(2) "voters felt the winner was what they liked best."
 
It may well be the book that the voters liked best, but then it's not really an "award" is it? Books aren't usually judged solely by their popularity except when viewed as commercial product, as with Dan Brown. Moreover, when it comes to book awards, one might imagine that they would not be conducted like political hustings. If the BFS is willing to allow this sort of campaigning then they are bound to end up with winners that are most successfully promoted----since promotional activities will win out over content on a popular vote. 
 
Admittedly, I do have a history of being irreverant towards awards. Mine's a healthy attitude, I think. Still, I'll congratulate where I think credit's due. I've congratulated people on winning awards (I enjoy seeing folk pleased as much as the next person), and this is the first time I've dared to speak up in public against a specific award winning book rather than talking in general about awards.
 
I am sorry if I have personally upset Allyson, but my criticism is directed at her book and the methods used to promote it. If expressing my view makes me her "enemy" as she described me elsewhere, again I'm sorry. I don't like to be the cause of upset. But I don't think BRFG deserved to win. Honest opinion, nothing more to it.
 
Mark S.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 11:30:17 am
The "sour grapes" charge is simply a means of deflecting the argument away from a discussion of Allyson's book and claiming any criticism I make is biased at source, irrespective of a reasoned consideration of the points raised.

If you lose an award and then write about how the awards are all a fix people are going to say it looks like sour grapes. Whether the criticisms are justified don't make much of a difference... When losers in a competition moan about the system it looks like sour grapes. You know that. Of course it doesn't invalidate your points, but it makes you look like a sore loser.
 

It may well be the book that the voters liked best, but then it's not really an "award" is it?

Which awards aren't decided by votes, then? Whether it's the votes of a large academy or the votes of a small panel, an internet vote like the Gemmell or a panel like the World Fantasy Award, every award comes down to what a group of people think about something.

It's odd that people complain that Allyson's online behaviour has been obnoxious, yet credit it with winning her an award. If her behaviour has been so bad (and I'd agree she's been over-enthusiastic at times) surely she won the award despite that behaviour, not because of it?
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 29, 2009, 11:46:06 am
Books have power not necessarily by their perfection but by a strong sense of emotion that permeates through them. I still stand by my review of BULL RUNNING in July.

In Mark's case, I do believe that it is not sour grapes, however it may appear.

In many instances in the past I have felt BFS winners have been unworthy of the award.  But I don't know enough about the subject to be certain so I don't say so. I presume Mark has studied Allyson's book to reach such a firm conviction.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 29, 2009, 12:42:37 pm
I have now added this as a footnote (in the form of a blog comment to my own review):

"In answer to Mark Samuels (BFS member) and Johnny Mains (non-BFS Member) - who have gone out of their way to express their conviction that this book is an unworthy winner of the BFS Award for best collection - I would say that that is a moot point. I hope I have shown above that, although BULL RUNNING is imperfect (as I point out in various places in the review), the aftertaste and its resonating emotion outweigh the imperfections, given a proper study of the book. That is not to say that the other contenders for the prize (which, other than the King, I have also done real-time reviews for in the past) are not worthy winners, too. It's just that it's feasible that ALL of them are worthy winners and it was the voting that decided in the end, as it should."
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: CarolineC on September 29, 2009, 12:52:38 pm
Oh dear, this is all rather sad. At a time when Ally, and the rest of the BFS award winners, should be celebrating their successes, this has cast a shadow over everything. I'm not sure what to say, but just a few points from an "outsider" perspective:

1. If Ally has been seen as "aggressively marketing" her book, I'm not sure that's something she should be admonished for. Bear in mind that, at the time, her publisher was seriously ill. Ally therefore took it on herself to market the book. Good for her - that shows initiative, concern for her publisher to do the best by him, and concern for the genre and the small presses generally in that she wanted the book to succeed (as well as, of course, wanting it to succeed from her point of view, as the writer). In my opinion, writing a book isn't just about the art. If you want people to read it, it has to be marketed (BTW I teach management - including marketing - so I guess I come from that perspective anyway).

2. I feel Mark and Johnny have now made their points clear, and - to me - that's fair enough. They have every right to their opinions, the same as anyone else. Unfortunately, to start with, these points were misunderstood by people reading them. For example, I thought Johnny's initial post was simply a carry over from last year's rumpus in the Vault, but, after having a little PMed conversation with him via the Vault, I've realised that isn't the case. He has read the book, has informed opinions on it, and that's fair enough. Sorry for my mistake there, Johnny.

Mark has also made his position clear about the award and the book - again, fair enough as he's entitled to hold those opinions too.

The issue, as I see it, with the BFS awards is that they are voted on by members rather than a panel of "experts". But I'm aware of some of the public discussion which went on around this matter - basically, there are problems if you do it that way, and there are also problems if you do it the other way. The BFS have chosen to let members vote - again, fair enough as far as I'm concerned.

3. But in amongst everything, let's not forget that Ally has been upset by all this, and that's perhaps the saddest part of it all. I really hope that everyone can move on, and Ally can be left to feel that she really HAS achieved a tremendous feat in winning this award with her first collection (I read somewhere that only Joe Hill has previously done this?). By the way, I've not read the book so I can't comment at all on its relative merits or otherwise. I did hear Ally read "The Caul Bearer" at an event, where I thought it sat well alongside stories read by Ramsey Campbell, Peter Crowther, Mark Morris and others.

And now I hope I haven't made things any worse by any of my comments - I'm trying to help cool things down, but I don't know if I've helped at all ...  :-\
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: CarolineC on September 29, 2009, 12:54:44 pm
And sorry, Des, I was posting at the same time as you - so my "oh dear, this is rather sad" definitely isn't aimed at your posts but the situation overall! You've been a tremendous voice of reason in all this.  :)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 29, 2009, 01:02:24 pm
Thanks for that, Caroline, and, in my opinion, for your very helpful post (as you seem to be doubt how helpful it may be). :)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 01:24:18 pm
Mark has also made his position clear about the award and the book - again, fair enough as he's entitled to hold those opinions too.

Absolutely true. Just as other people are entitled to think he's a jerk for expressing them at that time and in that way.

Basically, he did a Kanye.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 29, 2009, 01:39:20 pm
What's 'kanye'?

I don't like the expression 'jerk'.  But, there you go.  Mark may have stirred a lot of emotions, but Mark's still Mark.

Quote from my real-time review  (http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/bull_running_for_girls__by_allyson_bird.htm) of BULL RUNNING:

Blood in Madness Ran
That madness again.  Here, for me, all comes together, in a glorious Vancean fantasy masterpiece of Legends of the sea and of history and of mythology, underpinned as it is by many of the previous stories (including ‘The Caul Bearer’, ‘The Sly Boy Bar and Eatery’, ‘In a Pig’s Ear’ &c.) and by Gulliver’s Travels...  This should win awards. Enough said. Worth the admission price alone. [Without going back in time, it is impossible for me to tell whether this story-in-itself would seem quite so great without the previous parts of this book permeating its bull-runs or surfing-tides, with the book’s earlier tutoring of me to easily absorb mixed protagonists and changing narrative points-of-view, its fast moving jumped-started conclusions of disbelief-neutralisation, its Legends mixed like absinthe ... and more.
“Small sly faces with eyes the colour of green ice laughed back at her as she offered her breast to each in turn.(5 July 09 - two hours later)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Screaming Dreams on September 29, 2009, 01:54:16 pm
Hi all,

Thought I'd better step in and just explain something regarding the promotion aspect of the Bull Running book that seems to keep cropping up..

Many of you may already be aware of the situation with my health last year, but for the benefit of those who are not then I think it's worth pointing out WHY Ally was put in the position of promoting the book in the first place. Just before Bull Running for Girls was due at the printers I was rushed into hospital with Heart Failure. I was stuck in intensive care and various cardiac wards for weeks and therefore was not able to do anything with Screaming Dreams during that time.

Allyson was kind enough to step in at that point and offered to take over at Screaming Dreams while I was out of action. I had to relay instructions as best I could from my hospital bed! So you can imagine what extra pressures and responsibility she had to deal with unexpectedly. That was a lot to ask of any author I know, so I will be forever grateful to Ally for all the help and support during that very difficult time in my life. The Bull Running book would never have been launched on schedule at FantasyCon 2008 without all her hard work and dedication.

So I do feel it unfair that Ally has come under such fire for all her hard work promoting the book. She was a new author with a debut collection coming out, so it's natural that she wanted to make people aware that the book was available. Nothing wrong with that. Actually I applaud all her efforts. If only all my authors were so keen to participate more with their books! Add to that the extra responsibility of running Screaming Dreams while I was in hospital and the learning curve for her with that side of things and I think she did remarkably well under the circumstances. So I just think it's a bit sad that some people can't appreciate all she has done.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain a little of the background here to enlighten people that it wasn't simply a case of an author and/or publisher just going out there and plugging a book just to win an award. That was the last thing on our minds when we released the book I assure you! The book sold out all 50+ copies at the FCon launch in 2008 and the entire first print run sold out within weeks. So there was obviously demand for the book and we received lots of very nice comments from readers. So if enough people liked the book and voted in the awards, then great, I'm thrilled. But I most certainly did not pursue an award and would never go chasing votes and the like. Just wanted to set the record straight on that point.

I don't usually step in and reply to such things in the forums, but wanted to shed some extra light on this particular situation. I hope you don't mind?

Steve

Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Matthew Fryer on September 29, 2009, 02:00:55 pm
I'm new here, and I don't know what's gone on in the past or with the vault.
Seems like a mix of politics, personalities and horses for courses, perhaps with a little misunderstanding thrown in.
Emotions are running high, but it seems sad that Ally has come under fire and the award has taken her from high to low.

But anyway, I really enjoyed BRFG, and reviewed it positively only a week or so before the awards...
http://matthewfryer.wordpress.com/ (http://matthewfryer.wordpress.com/)
All the best with future publications Ally, of which I will be reading.

Oh, and did I need to do one of those newbie message board introductions?
If so, hello folks.
My name's Matt and I like barbecue beef hula hoops.
Sorted.  ;D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 04:10:33 pm
What's 'kanye'?

Kanye West got up on stage when a girl was accepting an MTV award to say she didn't deserve it, leaving her in tears, and leading President Obama to call him a jackass.

Did Taylor Swift's video deserve to win over Beyonce's? Probably not. Are the MTV awards completely corrupt? Probably. But did any of that justify ruining the best moment of that girl's life? No.

I seem to be getting angrier about this the more I think about it.  :)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Peter Coleborn on September 29, 2009, 04:55:30 pm
Who's Kanye West? Honestly, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 29, 2009, 04:58:32 pm
Oh, this is sweet (read BOTH posts):

http://horrorworldwatch.blogspot.com/

Elsewhere on the internet someone demands that "he or she should have the courage of their convictions and provide their real name".

Oh, I think we know who this is, don't we? Remember a number of years back when a BFS forum member was banned for their vicious and continuous comments about Ramsey Campbell?

This snippet gives the blogger's ID away:

Quote
The BFS prefers to favour horror over fantasy and to belittle the mainstream achievements of hugely commercial writers because they aren't as widely read as the under-achieving life-time President [...] And the two biggest catfish in the BFS pool are Ramsey "Mr Blobby" Campbell and Stephen "Delboy" Jones, who between them own enough BFS gold to keep Mr T in bling for his entire career.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 05:16:44 pm
Who's Kanye West? Honestly, I have no idea.

He's a very successful hip hop producer who began recording albums in his own name a few years ago. Some of his stuff is very interesting and experimental (many of his videos are extremely imaginative).

Here's a bit about the time he spoiled the big moment of Justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTJxj7a9-DA

And here's a bit about him breaking Taylor Swift's heart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z8gCZ7zpsQ
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: CarolineC on September 29, 2009, 06:21:00 pm
Elsewhere on the internet someone demands that "he or she should have the courage of their convictions and provide their real name".

That "someone" is me, by the way, on the RCMB. But I didn't actually demand it Paul, I just suggested that maybe they should. Anyway, since then I've realised that that blog is probably a spoof, not intended to be taken seriously. But it's a very sick "joke" (for want of a better word) nevertheless.

And I was wondering who on earth Kayne West was too!  :D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 29, 2009, 06:28:21 pm
The Horrorwatch blog has taken its comment boxes down now - since I complained to Horrorwatch himself on the VoE site that my comment wasn't shown.

I also said to him that the blog seemed designed to make everyone feel more uncomfortable in this argument (ie. everyone on all sides of the argument, in fact) and to raise the temperature of debate for its own sake.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 06:47:32 pm
And I was wondering who on earth Kayne West was too!  :D

"George Bush doesn't care about black people!"

His mum dying after plastic surgery?

Being sued by Evel Knievel?

Nothing...? Don't you guys read the papers?  :D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: marksamuels on September 29, 2009, 07:30:30 pm
I'm afraid I don't know who Kanye West is either. But thanks to Stephen for drawing him to my attention. Had I actually been at the BFS awards in person & jumped on stage, doubtless the analogy might be accurate.

Most of my free time is spent reading books, not following MTV (is this right)  ???

Mark S.



Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: AdrianF on September 29, 2009, 07:41:40 pm
And I was wondering who on earth Kayne West was too!  :D

"George Bush doesn't care about black people!"

His mum dying after plastic surgery?

Being sued by Evel Knievel?

Nothing...? Don't you guys read the papers?  :D

You left out the best Kanye quote:

"I am a proud non-reader of books"
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 07:43:58 pm
Actually, I think the analogy is absolutely accurate.

You decided to spoil what Allyson described from the podium as the best day of her life. Like Kanye you thought it was totally justified. You just did it from your desk instead of in the room.

That didn't make it any less upsetting for the person you did it to, or make it any less mean-spirited and disrespectful.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: marksamuels on September 29, 2009, 07:52:40 pm
I think you need to calm down, Stephen, and perhaps go back and read what I've written before.

Personal attacks aren't a reasoned debate.

Mark S.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 07:56:41 pm
I'm not attacking your person, just your behaviour.

Did I say anything that wasn't true?
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 29, 2009, 08:39:02 pm
Paul -- there's space for another two shelves on that wall. You are slipping, my man  :)

Oh, all right then! Is this better?  :D

(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh282/gritbooks/STA72767.jpg)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Peter Coleborn on September 29, 2009, 09:47:18 pm
And I was wondering who on earth Kayne West was too!  :D
"George Bush doesn't care about black people!"
His mum dying after plastic surgery?
Being sued by Evel Knievel?
Nothing...? Don't you guys read the papers?  :D

Sarky! I don't read OK and Hello either
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Peter Coleborn on September 29, 2009, 09:50:07 pm
Paul -- there's space for another two shelves on that wall. You are slipping, my man  :)

Oh, all right then! Is this better?  :D


Getting there  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Peter Coleborn on September 29, 2009, 09:52:00 pm
Come to think of it, Paul, it's rather like a shrine. Where's the altar?
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Peter Coleborn on September 29, 2009, 09:56:31 pm
Who's Kanye West? Honestly, I have no idea.

He's a very successful hip hop producer who began recording albums in his own name a few years ago. Some of his stuff is very interesting and experimental (many of his videos are extremely imaginative).

OK then. Looked him up, listened to him, etc ... and I couldn't care any less.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 29, 2009, 09:58:55 pm
Keep going, Paul... My five year old's got more books than that.  ;D

We've got thirteen bookcases, including four six-footers with the books doubled up on every shelf. 8)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: sandranorval on September 29, 2009, 10:30:42 pm
Hi,

I just wondered if this is all done now. I haven't read the book (yet), but I think Allyson's pain is being stretched further with all this, which really is a shame. So, congratulations Allyson on your win, you should be proud regardless of other people's thoughts/actions.

Meanwhile, I just thought I'd mention that this all gives a bit of an 'unapproachable' impression to new members (at least that's how I feel but I still joined the forum anyway). From comments in another thread that is something I know none of you would want. I do like, however, the bits about books and bookcases and thought it might be good to start a whole new thread on that, or where people read or something, might seem a little more welcoming.

Thanks, Sandra  ;D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: CarolineC on September 29, 2009, 11:17:01 pm
Believe it or not, Sandra, it isn't usually like this here!

Welcome, anyway.  :)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: FranklinMarsh on September 30, 2009, 07:25:11 am


Meanwhile, I just thought I'd mention that this all gives a bit of an 'unapproachable' impression to new members (at least that's how I feel but I still joined the forum anyway).

Too right! I may be childish and a juvenile pig but I surely didn't expect atomic levels of sarcasm because I foolishly forgot that more than one person may have the same surname!
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on September 30, 2009, 08:04:34 am
Welcome, anyway, Franklin. :)
Not that it's necessarily my place to issue welcomes here.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: benedictjjones on September 30, 2009, 10:59:53 am
bah - kept my mouth shut on this on various forums. personally i enjoyed Bull Running For Girls but, again personally, thought Paul Meloy should have won the award HOWEVER that's horses for courses, I don't have a problem with Ally winning at all it just means more people thoguht hers was better. However I do have a problem with people attacking the vault. The arguement last year was about the direction of the Vault and was all sorted it was a slightly different arguement to that which some people had with Ally which was more to do with her constant self promo posts. Thanks to the vault i've discovered a lot of books i might otherwise not have read.  Everyone is allowed their opinion obviously but why the attack on people who voice their opinions rather than on their actual arguements? Just because someone disagrees with you it doesn't make them juevinile or a pig etc etc.  If we didn't voice when we disagreed with something or when we thoguht a book was rubbish what kind of 'forum' would any of these be??  I do feel it true that too many people (more on the BFS forum than the Vault) feel the need to watch what they say and clap each other on the back in the hope that they'll get the same treatment in the future for what theyve done for people rather than the quality of their work.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Rolnikov on September 30, 2009, 11:31:35 am
I do feel it true that too many people (more on the BFS forum than the Vault) feel the need to watch what they say and clap each other on the back in the hope that they'll get the same treatment in the future for what theyve done for people rather than the quality of their work.

Like Johnny's earlier comment about people tiptoeing around each other in the BFS forums, this seems a bit odd to me, because until the last couple of weeks, and for most of the last couple of years, the BFS forums have been deathly quiet! Except for the books read thread, Tony's reviews, and the odd promotional post, there's hardly been anyone here.

So who's watching what they say, and who is clapping each other on the back? Far from tiptoeing around, I feel like I've spent a year striding through huge empty halls, talking to myself and listening to the echoes!  :)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: CarolineC on September 30, 2009, 01:32:34 pm
Meanwhile, I just thought I'd mention that this all gives a bit of an 'unapproachable' impression to new members (at least that's how I feel but I still joined the forum anyway).

Too right! I may be childish and a juvenile pig but I surely didn't expect atomic levels of sarcasm because I foolishly forgot that more than one person may have the same surname!

Hi Franklin - that was just one person's comments, which were presumably in the heat of the moment. I know you from several boards and I know you're a good guy. Honestly, this board isn't normally like this! In fact, it's usually dead quiet.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: FranklinMarsh on September 30, 2009, 02:02:11 pm
Des, Caroline

Thank you.

As I said elsewhere, just me being a bit precious.

I'll move swiftly on....
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on September 30, 2009, 04:21:04 pm
Come to think of it, Paul, it's rather like a shrine. Where's the altar?

The bar at Fantasycon!  :D
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: allybird on October 07, 2009, 08:25:19 pm
Just wanted to say that I'm happy Ellen Datlow gave me 6 Honourable Mentions for Bull Running for Girls, one of which - The Bone Grinder - is mentioned in her anthology, Best of Horror - Year One.
 
Bird, Allyson “The Bone Grinder,” Bull Running for Girls.
Bird, Allyson “Bull Running,” Ibid.
Bird, Allyson “The Caul Bearer,” Ibid.
Bird, Allyson “The Conical Witch,” Ibid.
Bird, Allyson “Hunter’s Moon,” Ibid.
Bird, Allyson “In the Hall of the Mountain King,” Ibid.
 
Congrats to members and friends of the BFS who found their way onto the list too!
 
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: Paul Campbell on October 07, 2009, 11:09:10 pm
Well done Ally!

- and well done to Simon Bestwick whose novella "The Narrows" (originally published in http://www.pendragonpress.net/books/fade2grey/) is included in Datlow's anthology line-up, as well as his other novella, "The School House" from the BFS's own Houses on the Borderland,  being one of the fifty honourable mentioned listed at the back of the book.
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: iamacanadian on October 07, 2009, 11:37:34 pm
Hooray all! A damned good thing to be proud of! Hoorah!

I look forward to reading my copy when it arrives, along with the Probert and McMahon books recently released by Screaming Dreams.

…there, see how easy that is, everyone?
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: DFL on October 08, 2009, 08:23:29 am
I'm also looking forward to reading 'ibid'.  ;)
Title: Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Post by: sandranorval on October 10, 2009, 05:23:51 pm
Hearty congratulations to all those listed! Well done!