The British Fantasy Society Forum

British Fantasy Society => British Fantasy Awards => Topic started by: allybird on November 28, 2013, 10:55:09 pm

Title: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on November 28, 2013, 10:55:09 pm
It would be great if an award in his name was suggested at the BFS Christmas night (or even voted upon by email by committee members to make it happen if that is how it works) rather than leaving it any length of time. Then an announcement as soon as possible. It is consoling thought. To hear his name read out each year would be wonderful. Having him there with us in the moment.

Stephen. How does the process work?

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on November 28, 2013, 11:08:54 pm
Hi Allyson

I've moved your post to a new thread in the awards part of the forum so that we can discuss it there. I wouldn't want to have a conversation about technicalities in a thread where people are sharing their memories of Joel.

The BFS committee can't make changes to the awards rules. Any BFS member who would like to propose a change to the rules should submit the proposed change in writing to the chair before the next AGM, and if seconded it will be voted on there.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on November 28, 2013, 11:14:18 pm
Thank you, Stephen!

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on November 28, 2013, 11:15:15 pm
'The BFS committee can't make changes to the awards rules. Any BFS member who would like to propose a change to the rules should submit the proposed change in writing to the chair before the next AGM, and if seconded it will be voted on there.'

That would be a two year wait. Put forward next year and awarded the year after...can't anything be done to speed that process up?

Joel won The World Fantasy Award this year with his wonderful collection, Where Furnaces Burn, (PS Publishing). He didn't win the BFS one but was in the final ballot. Robert Shearman won with his excellent work. It just would be quite a great gesture to name the award after Joel.

'Best Collection
From Hell to Eternity, Thana Niveau (Gray Friar Press)
Remember Why You Fear Me, Robert Shearman (ChiZine Publications)
Where Furnaces Burn, Joel Lane (PS Publishing)
The Woman Who Married a Cloud, Jonathan Carroll (Subterannean Press)'

Knowing Joel well, and although modest, he would appreciate and love the gesture. And down through the years it will be there when he, sadly...will not. Something permanent. Lasting.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on November 28, 2013, 11:33:08 pm
The committee did previously have the power to vote in changes, but it was removed a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Andrew Hook on November 29, 2013, 09:10:01 am
I think it would be very appropriate for Joel to be awarded the lifetime achievement award this year, but of course this is a matter for the committee.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Peter Coleborn on November 29, 2013, 11:17:45 am
This is a personal opinion, not necessarily that of the committee:

I was a friend of Joel's for 30 years or so. We shared many personal, painful secrets over the years. I would love him to be honoured. However, renaming an award after him just doesn't feel right to me. It feels like a kneejerk reaction, one that Joel -- I believe -- would be uncomfortable with. Perhaps the society could consider a tribute anthology, to be published at FC2014 (I'll suggest it to them).

I still can't believe he has left us...

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on November 30, 2013, 10:30:31 pm
'Uncomfortable' I understand what you mean there, but as another writer has just pointed out to me, he was like that with any form of praise. He'd be quietly pleased I feel.

A tribute anthology on its own does not seem nearly enough.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 01, 2013, 10:13:17 am
Sorry, Allyson, as a member, and as the administrator of the awards, I'm not in favour either, for the same reason I was against naming an award after Robert Holdstock, here (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3156.msg23042#msg23042). I think it's notable that we now have four awards named for men. Despite my respect for Joel's work, I'm against making that five. I'd prefer to scale back the number of named awards we have, if anything.

The BFS committee has discussed the idea, and would prefer to find different ways to honour Joel's life and work, for example at next year's FantasyCon. But as explained above, it's not in our power to say yes or no to a proposal to change the awards rules. If a member proposes this at next year's AGM the committee's votes count for no more or less than the votes of other members.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 02, 2013, 12:43:53 am
An anthology (which would not be there every year) on its own does not seem nearly enough. An event in his honour next year at Fantasycon would of course be wonderful but there again it would not be permanent.


Could a postal vote letter be sent out to members with the next mailing of the journal? Asking the members what they would like to do? Almost a year is a very long time until the AGM. And if it was decided on an award in his memory it could be presented like that next year.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 02, 2013, 09:00:57 am
No, a postal vote wouldn't have any effect on the rules. The last one, the big internet vote, didn't affect the rules directly either - it would have had to have been given effect by a committee or EGM/AGM vote. And those changes removed the committee's power to vote in changes to the awards rules.

Have you considered setting up a new, separate award yourself in Joel's name? Named awards usually tend to be standalones, like the Arthur C. Clarke, John W. Campbell, Philip K. Dick, James Tiptree, David Gemmell and Shirley Jackson awards - even our own August Derleth award was originally a singleton. A Joel Lane Award, specifically for, say, slipstream writing, might find much interesting work to recognise.

If you wanted to explore that option, I'd be happy to provide any help and advice I can. And though I can't make promises on the FantasyCon 2014 team's behalf, I wouldn't be surprised if a slot could be found in the FantasyCon schedule for its presentation. For example, it could form part of the event planned for the Joel Lane Bar.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 04, 2013, 05:37:59 am
Unfortunately I do not have the resources to do that and it would be good to have a permanent venue for it to take place...like at the BFS Awards itself. I already read 80 odd collections or so for the HWA Stoker Awards as Chair each year (and gather many of them in). Joel was always telling me to stop volunteering for things, and write another novel.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 04, 2013, 10:10:06 am
Shame - a standalone Joel Lane Award would be able to reflect his sensibilities and interests in a way our awards never could, and would do much more to promote works in a similar vein. Plus, you wouldn't have to wait. The award could be set up in the next couple of months, submissions invited from publishers, jurors recruited - the first award could be presented next year.

I doubt it would require much in the way of financial resources - publishers are often happy to send reading copies directly to jurors. Maybe something to consider when you stop working on the Stokers? It might even be a project worth dropping the Stokers for - and your experience on those would be invaluable in setting up a new award.

Up to you, of course, and I understand that you're busy with other projects, but if you're really keen to institute an award in Joel's name I think it's worth serious consideration as the most viable option. It would I agree be much more work than tagging his name onto an existing society award, but that work would give it more meaning as a tribute to his life and writing.

As far as the BFAs go, you'd be waiting for the next AGM, and my sense is that it's unlikely to pass, if proposed. No one on the committee spoke in favour, nor have any BFS members here. I think "We'd have five awards named after men" is just too big a hurdle for the proposal to get over. I could be wrong, though. Can you think of anything to counter that particular objection?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: David A. Riley on December 04, 2013, 10:39:02 am
"I think "We'd have five awards named after men" is just too big a hurdle for the proposal to get over."

There could be some justification perhaps in considering renaming one of the awards instead.

Although I still admire what he did for the genre during the 40s, 50s and 60s, principally as one of the founders of Arkham House and as an editor of numerous anthologies, time has not looked favourably on August Derleth, and I am sure there are many in the fantasy/horror community who would struggle to explain who he was nowadays.

Perhaps rather than creating a new award, it may be time to think about renaming an existing one such as the August Derleth Award. 

Just a suggestion.

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 04, 2013, 11:35:08 am
'As far as the BFAs go, you'd be waiting for the next AGM, and my sense is that it's unlikely to pass, if proposed. No one on the committee spoke in favour, nor have any BFS members here.'

Not many members post on this forum. When I mentioned it on facebook it got over 50 positive responses. Many from writers we all know. Whether they are members or not I can't say....hence it would be good to have a vote on it.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 04, 2013, 12:48:19 pm
Although a great fan of Joel and his work, I don't know why we name the awards at all in people's names. It tends, sooner or later, to complicate things with changing times, changing fashions etc.
So, why not be simple, Best Novel (without division), Best Collection, Best Anthology etc.? And I speak as an earlier winner of the Karl Edward Wagner award! :|
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: David A. Riley on December 04, 2013, 01:06:44 pm
The August Derleth Award is a prime example of that, Des. He was very relevant back when he died, with numerous anthologies out bearing his name, not to mention collections of his own and even the odd novel or two (usually collaborations with Lovecraft), plus Arkham House was a major publisher of genre material at that time. Much though I respect his legacy, I doubt many members of the BFS are all that familiar with him now - if at all - and as far as I'm aware all of his anthologies, collections, etc fell out of print decades ago.

The HWA held a ballot of its entire membership to agree on the name Stoker for all their awards. The Mystery Writers have the Edgar (after Poe). There is, of course, the David Gemmell Award for fantasy novels. This is self financing and not tied in to any other organisation.

Possibly the BFS is unusual in having awards named after so many different people.



Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Peter Coleborn on December 04, 2013, 03:34:34 pm
I rather things be done (whatever the "things" are) on merit rather than because of gender imbalance. However, Stephen is quite right in highlighting this gender imbalance in the naming of our awards and I think this is an area that can (should) be addressed. There is also the balance between the wings of fantasy -- from dark to light -- and I guess we need to consider that, too.

Des, I doubt that the Best Novel Award could be reunited again, although that is my preference in an ideal world, where enough people vote to ensure a wide range of fantasy is represented in the short list.
 
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 04, 2013, 04:29:49 pm
I rather things be done (whatever the "things" are) on merit rather than because of gender imbalance. [...]
Des, I doubt that the Best Novel Award could be reunited again, although that is my preference in an ideal world, where enough people vote to ensure a wide range of fantasy is represented in the short list.
 

These two issues are perhaps related, I feel, with regard to forced quotas?
But that discussion, I feel, needs a different thread to this Joel Lane one.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 04, 2013, 10:05:01 pm
Not many members post on this forum. When I mentioned it on facebook it got over 50 positive responses. Many from writers we all know. Whether they are members or not I can't say....hence it would be good to have a vote on it.

I think most of the AGM regulars do post here, at least every now and then. I can see why so many of your Facebook friends clicked like - it was a very sweet idea, and no one had yet explained why we might not want to do it. When later on you posted on Facebook to say the BFS committee wasn't keen, it looks like there were more people saying they agreed with us than saying we'd got it wrong (though of course privacy settings may mean I'm getting a misleading impression).

If it's proposed and seconded at the AGM, there will be a vote, don't worry. I might be wrong about the outcome. You've got nine months to build support for the proposal. Lots of new people might shrug off their hangovers and turn up at next year's AGM (which would be very welcome) and vote it through. I'm just saying that it might be a good idea for you to explore other options, especially if you already think a year is too long to wait, because renaming a BFS award can't possibly happen any sooner than that, and might not happen even then.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 04, 2013, 10:56:00 pm
On the split novel issue, we do also have two awards for short story collections, two awards for short stories of various lengths, and another award that usually goes to magazines that publish short stories. You could argue that, in comparison, novels are relatively under-represented!

Though I didn't vote for the novel award to be split, because of the problems with the original proposal, I think it's working well now that the two categories are entirely separate. The fantasy novel category was much more popular with voters this year than the horror novel category. I would have to look properly at the spread of votes in each to be sure, but that's got me wondering whether the previous preponderance of horror in the best novel category wasn't down to a bias against fantasy in the society, as people often thought, but rather down to fantasy fans having a wider range of big, popular books to choose from, thus spreading their votes more thinly.

Anyway, as I'm sure you all know, the same goes for re-merging the novels as for Allyson's idea - any member who wants to could propose re-merging the novel categories at the next AGM. One thing I'm likely to propose next year is to have AGM proposals sent in writing to the awards administrator rather than the chair, to keep things clear. I still like the idea of giving the vote to former award winners and jurors, but I'm not ready to propose it yet.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 12:02:34 am
'When later on you posted on Facebook to say the BFS committee wasn't keen, it looks like there were more people saying they agreed with us than saying we'd got it wrong (though of course privacy settings may mean I'm getting a misleading impression).'

That is a later post. 2nd Dec.  Yes. The message was 'Some people may not be able to see this attachment because of its privacy settings.' I'd shared it from the earlier post (new heading comment) but fb would not transfer the positive responses etc.

Before that I'd posted this....28th Nov. 'Can we please have a The British Fantasy Society award for collection or short story named after Joel Lane ? To hear his name read out each year would mean a lot. He's influenced so many of us.'

That is the one which has the many (now 60 plus) positive comments and responses.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 12:50:25 am
Why not have a short EGM just before the Christmas party on the 13th? Vote on it there?

'Members unable to attend the EGM in person will be able to vote electronically.'

Add to it an electronic vote like in this...

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3114.0
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: CarolineC on December 05, 2013, 07:47:11 am
I agree with Ally (though I'm probably a lapsed member of the BFS by now), surely an EGM could be called to put this to the vote? I was under the impression that the BFS was - being under new management - going to try to change its 'communication with members' problem. In recent years, there's been a distinct lack of communication with members and I thought it was the intention to try to change that. Surely putting this to the vote would be a good first step in that regard? Of course, if the majority of members say "no" then so be it - but please do communicate with members, not just continue to ignore them. I'm certainly waiting to see if the BFS does improve its communication before I renew my membership - and I reckon a lot of other lapsed members will be doing the same.

Ally - I have another idea (which I'll also post on your FB comment too). I remember you saying that several publishers intend to publish anthologies in Joel's memory, and I think you said it might be better if they all pooled together and did just one. Well, might that 'coming together' of publishers be used to form an award in his name? Perhaps several publishers could club together - sharing the workload and financing - to produce and judge such an award? And maybe the BFS would be kind enough to allow that award to be presented at the BFAs next year - even though it isn't a BFA in its own right? Just a thought anyway. I have no idea if it's feasible.

I didn't know Joel very well - only through his writing and his contribution to the Ramsey Campbell Message Board - but he seemed to me to be the kind of person who would have wanted to bring people together. What better way to bring them together than to have a number of folk in the genre (writers, readers and publishers) working on an award like this?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 09:07:40 am
That is a later post. 2nd Dec.  Yes. The message was 'Some people may not be able to see this attachment because of its privacy settings.' I'd shared it from the earlier post (new heading comment) but fb would not transfer the positive responses etc.

No, I'm not talking about your re-sharing of your own thread, Allyson, I'm referring to your separate post that passed on the news that the BFS committee was not keen. Sarah Pinborough and Charles Rudkin commented to say that they agreed with our decision, both posts picking up a few likes. No one, last I looked, said there that we were wrong.

Look, you might be right, and the 50 or 60 likes you've got on your private Facebook thread from your 1,647 Facebook friends may translate into votes at next year's AGM. We don't need to agree on that. I don't support the proposal, but I don't get to pick and choose what proposals the AGM considers.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 09:12:16 am
Why not have a short EGM just before the Christmas party on the 13th? Vote on it there?

'Members unable to attend the EGM in person will be able to vote electronically.'

Add to it an electronic vote like in this...

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3114.0

The E in EGM stands for Extraordinary. This is not an extraordinary or emergency proposal. It can wait perfectly well until the AGM. If it's a good idea now, it'll be a good idea in September. Also, the membership has to be given a month's notice of an EGM, ruling out the Xmas Open Night. And the committee has no reason to call an EGM solely to consider a proposal none of us support - especially one that would be so damaging for the society's reputation on gender issues.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 09:36:22 am
I agree with Ally (though I'm probably a lapsed member of the BFS by now), surely an EGM could be called to put this to the vote? I was under the impression that the BFS was - being under new management - going to try to change its 'communication with members' problem. In recent years, there's been a distinct lack of communication with members and I thought it was the intention to try to change that. Surely putting this to the vote would be a good first step in that regard? Of course, if the majority of members say "no" then so be it - but please do communicate with members, not just continue to ignore them. I'm certainly waiting to see if the BFS does improve its communication before I renew my membership - and I reckon a lot of other lapsed members will be doing the same.

Ally - I have another idea (which I'll also post on your FB comment too). I remember you saying that several publishers intend to publish anthologies in Joel's memory, and I think you said it might be better if they all pooled together and did just one. Well, might that 'coming together' of publishers be used to form an award in his name? Perhaps several publishers could club together - sharing the workload and financing - to produce and judge such an award? And maybe the BFS would be kind enough to allow that award to be presented at the BFAs next year - even though it isn't a BFA in its own right? Just a thought anyway. I have no idea if it's feasible.

I didn't know Joel very well - only through his writing and his contribution to the Ramsey Campbell Message Board - but he seemed to me to be the kind of person who would have wanted to bring people together. What better way to bring them together than to have a number of folk in the genre (writers, readers and publishers) working on an award like this?

I'm sorry if there has been a lack of communication regarding the awards over the past year. Yes, a standalone award in Joel's name is a much better idea than tagging his name to a BFA award, for all the reasons already given by myself and others in this thread. I suggested a Joel Lane Award above and offered my support. No, we wouldn't have it presented at the same time as the BFAs, but as I said above I'd imagine that a slot could be found for its presentation in the Joel Lane Bar at FantasyCon 2014.

I think it's unfair to describe us as ignoring members, if the only place they are said to have expressed their thoughts is by liking a private Facebook thread on Allyson's wall, one I only was only able to read because Ranjna showed it to me! If people want their Facebook threads to be regarded as part of a public conversation, those threads should be public, otherwise it's just muttering behind the bike sheds. I think it's unfair to suggest the BFS should base its policies on a Facebook thread which many of our members cannot read.

In fact, far from ignoring the proposal, the BFS committee discussed it straight away and came back to Allyson with our thoughts. Disagreeing with something isn't the same thing as ignoring it. I've also put in a good deal of time here explaining how Allyson and the proposal's supporters can go about getting this proposal into the rules, despite my opposition to it. If you want this proposal to happen, join the society and vote for it. And vote in next year's awards: not to be mawkish, but the best time to honour writers is when they're still around to know they're being honoured.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 09:45:44 am
'No, I'm not talking about your re-sharing of your own thread, Allyson, I'm referring to your separate post that passed on the news that the BFS committee was not keen. Sarah Pinborough and Charles Rudkin commented to say that they agreed with our decision, both posts picking up a few likes. No one, last I looked, said there that we were wrong.'

I know which thread you are referring to the 2nd but the earlier thread 28th Nov has the positive comments including one from Ramsey and Stephen Volk... amongst others. Have you not seen this post on my wall? They said what they wanted to say on that post.

'That is the one which has the many (now 60 plus) positive comments and responses.'

'If people want their Facebook threads to be regarded as part of a public conversation, those threads should be public, otherwise it's just muttering behind the bike sheds. I think it's unfair to suggest the BFS should base its policies on a Facebook thread which many of our members cannot read.'

It is public. How on earth could I simply paste this on here. And Stephen. 'muttering behind the bike sheds' is a very poor choice of words.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 10:06:48 am
Caroline. All interesting points. But I think it would be quite difficult to bring the numbers of press who are considering bringing out the tribute anthologies together and we already have BFS awards in place well suited for the purpose. The small press find it difficult enough to survive as it is.. the award for Best collection I'm suggesting could be in the actual award ceremony each year.  And not just one off... It could be in the actual award ceremony each year.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 10:14:38 am
I know which thread you are referring to the 2nd but the earlier thread 28th Nov has the positive comments including one from Ramsey and Stephen Volk... amongst others. Have you not seen this post on my wall?

Yes, I have seen it - as I've said, although it's a private post, Ranjna showed it to me. In the post above (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3681.msg28597#msg28597), the one you were replying to, I contrasted that initial, positive reaction to your first mention of the idea, to the more measured reaction to the later post where you said the BFS committee wasn't keen.

I've also seen where you said, "I know but those few on the BFS forum are not getting it at all", which I think is rather unfair. You've not said a word here to counter the reasons I've given for not supporting the proposal, and I've noticed that when you've quoted me on Facebook, you've been careful to avoid quoting those reasons!

Unfortunately, your selective quotation on Facebook of my forum posts may give your friends the impression that I'm against the proposal because I don't think it has popular support, whereas as you know I'm against it for the same reason I was against the Robert Holdstock award: if we want to shake our reputation for sexism, we shouldn't name any more of our awards after men.

Also, as Des and David point out above, that we have individual awards named after anyone at all is quite peculiar. I don't think it's something we should double down on.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 10:26:56 am
'Yes, I have seen it - as I've said, although it's a private post, Ranjna showed it to me. In the post above, the one you were replying to, I contrasted that initial, positive reaction to your first mention of the idea, to the more measured reaction to the later post where you said the BFS committee wasn't keen.'

I disagree. They said what their thoughts were on the subject then. 'Measured reaction.' Why on earth would they repeat themselves?

'I've also seen where you said, "I know but those few on the BFS forum are not getting it at all", which I think is rather unfair. You've not said a word here to counter the reasons I've given for not supporting the proposal, and I've noticed that when you've quoted me on Facebook, you've been careful to avoid quoting those reasons!'


The link is there for people to see the reasons!












 
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: CarolineC on December 05, 2013, 10:29:50 am
... the award for Best collection I'm suggesting could be in the actual award ceremony each year.  And not just one off... It could be in the actual award ceremony each year.

Sorry, Ally, I didn't mean it as a one-off. What I meant was an annual award which is presented at the BFAs each year - but if it was done the way I suggested it could be put in place by FCon 2014, rather than having to wait for the next AGM before the BFS would consider it. But I totally take your point about logistics - I know nothing about those kinds of things and was simply throwing the idea out there as a "thinking outside the box" suggestion which might solve the problem.

Stephen - sorry, I wasn't talking about non-communication re the BFAs. If anything, you're one of only two members of the committee who regularly communicate with members, for which I and others greatly appreciate you. No, I was talking about lack of communication with members generally - the reason why so many people aren't bothering to renew their membership, as far as I can see.

But that's not an issue for this thread - this thread is about how the BFS can best remember Joel. As I've said above, I'm sure he'd be wanting to bring people together here - whether that's with or without BFS involvement (was he a member?) is clearly a matter for the BFS membership.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 10:37:43 am
Understood...Caroline.





Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 11:10:04 am
It is public. How on earth could I simply paste this on here. And Stephen. 'muttering behind the bike sheds' is a very poor choice of words.

No, your Facebook threads on the subject are all set to private, only visible to your friends, maybe your friends of friends. Not sure why it's a poor choice of words. That's what I think about Facebook in general, why I don't use it! It's not an open conversation. Not sure what "How on earth could I simply paste this on here" means.

I disagree. They said what their thoughts were on the subject then. 'Measured reaction.' Why on earth would they repeat themselves?

My point was that no one posted to say, hey, the BFS committee has got it wrong, we should *definitely* have five awards named after men. Everyone who had anything to say said we had come to the right conclusion.

But as I've explained, even if every single BFS member had liked your post on Facebook, and had turned up in this thread to endorse your proposal, even if I supported it myself, that wouldn't change a thing. Changes to the awards rules can only be made at the AGM. Your options are to wait for the AGM in September and hope it gets voted in, or to go your own way with a separate award. Sorry if you find that unhelpful, but that is the system our members voted for.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 11:20:03 am
Your help has been much appreciated, Stephen ....but I have to say I don't think many people really like coming to this forum. They prefer to chat on facebook.

Certainly what I have said on facebook has been there with the links to this so the people who do have access, and have read my comments, can see the discussion/your reasoning etc through the link.

 
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 11:39:49 am
Your help has been much appreciated, Stephen ....but I have to say I don't think many people really like coming to this forum. They prefer to chat on facebook.

Certainly what I have said on facebook has been there with the links to this so the people who do have access, and have read my comments, can see the discussion/your reasoning etc through the link.

That's fine. Just be aware that as long as you're discussing these issues on your private Facebook posts, only you and your friends can see them. You could make the relevant posts public easily enough if you want to, but I do understand why many people prefer to keep their Facebook completely private.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 05, 2013, 11:40:50 am
As a member I agree & would think it suitable to name an award after Joel Lane.
 He was an upstanding figure in dark fiction, poetry & a talented anthologist...of course it's suitable!
 I have read both threads referring to the naming & I disagree with the fact that a postal vote would be useless, as an active member I'm beginning to feel that there isn't much of a point to pay my membership dues & review for the BFS is I have no say in this. I know that other members are feeling the same.

 Now, how can I lobby for this to be brought up? I, & many others, have this wish...What are the guideline recommendations saying that I have no say?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 05, 2013, 11:42:53 am
I too would like to know how this will work...please ensure I have full access to the process as a paying active membership.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 05, 2013, 11:51:40 am
Sorry, Allyson, as a member, and as the administrator of the awards, I'm not in favour either, for the same reason I was against naming an award after Robert Holdstock, here (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3156.msg23042#msg23042). I think it's notable that we now have four awards named for men. Despite my respect for Joel's work, I'm against making that five. I'd prefer to scale back the number of named awards we have, if anything.

The BFS committee has discussed the idea, and would prefer to find different ways to honour Joel's life and work, for example at next year's FantasyCon. But as explained above, it's not in our power to say yes or no to a proposal to change the awards rules. If a member proposes this at next year's AGM the committee's votes count for no more or less than the votes of other members.

How are our handbooks paid for? Do we not provide the necessary monies needed to publish other BFS publications to be printed only to have to purchase the books later?
 Look at the cost of the conventions, not everyone can afford that but countless still attend.
 
 Again, a member's vote SHOULD count. Especially if there are so many of us who wish for this to happen.
 Furthermore, our votes decide who wins awards, so why can't we build a society that is deemed fitting of us?

  It does cost money for individuals to publish, I'm in the middle of saving money to publish my own charity anthology When Darkness Calls, it's not easy! We should have the full support of the committee & have guidelines that ensure we have something pliable, not unsupportive.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 11:53:11 am
As a member I agree & would think it suitable to name an award after Joel Lane.
 He was an upstanding figure in dark fiction, poetry & a talented anthologies...of course it's suitable!
 I have read both threads referring to the naming & I disagree with the fact that a postal vote would be useless, as an active member I'm beginning to feel that there isn't much of a point to pay my membership dues & review for the BFS is I have no say in this. I know that other members are feeling the same.

 Now, how can I lobby for this to be brought up? I, & many others, have this wish...What are the guideline recommendations saying that I have no say?

As a member, you have exactly the same amount of say as any of us: you can propose changes at the AGM and you can vote at the AGM.

Proposed changes to the awards rules must be submitted in writing to the chair. They will be considered at the next AGM, which will be at FantasyCon next September. Note that you do not need to pay for FantasyCon to attend the AGM. If seconded, proposals will be put to a vote (usually after a bit of discussion).

The current system for making changes to the awards was decided following a membership-wide vote (here (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3184.0)). The awards constitution can be read here. (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/the-british-fantasy-awards-constitution-ii/) This is the relevant part:

Quote
Changes to these guidelines may only be made by a vote at the AGM of the British Fantasy Society, taken according to the same rules of procedure outlined in the BFS constitution. A committee vote may not be used to reverse a decision made at an AGM.

Hope that's helpful.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Ramsey Campbell on December 05, 2013, 11:57:26 am
I do think naming an award for Joel would honour both his memory and the Society. As well as a fine fiction writer, Joel was one of the most perceptive critics the field has ever seen.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: pitman on December 05, 2013, 12:10:55 pm
With all due respect, and I like the idea a lot, but maybe it would be better to wait a little, till emotions are quieter, to decide the best way to commemorate Joel? Whether an award, or a publlication, or what. Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 05, 2013, 12:17:15 pm
I do think naming an award for Joel would honour both his memory and the Society. As well as a fine fiction writer, Joel was one of the most perceptive critics the field has ever seen.

 He was, a fine example to future generations of writers, critics & anthologists!
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 12:23:49 pm
Hi Marian...there are five anthologies in the planning stage which we know about. It is a permanent award some of us want. Given WITHIN the existing BFS awards ....year after year. Not set apart.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 12:25:12 pm
Well said Ramsey. 'I do think naming an award for Joel would honour both his memory and the Society. As well as a fine fiction writer, Joel was one of the most perceptive critics the field has ever seen.'
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 05, 2013, 12:27:12 pm
I can't find my posts on this thread...are they appearing?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 05, 2013, 12:30:17 pm
As a member I agree & would think it suitable to name an award after Joel Lane.
 He was an upstanding figure in dark fiction, poetry & a talented anthologies...of course it's suitable!
 I have read both threads referring to the naming & I disagree with the fact that a postal vote would be useless, as an active member I'm beginning to feel that there isn't much of a point to pay my membership dues & review for the BFS is I have no say in this. I know that other members are feeling the same.

 Now, how can I lobby for this to be brought up? I, & many others, have this wish...What are the guideline recommendations saying that I have no say?

As a member, you have exactly the same amount of say as any of us: you can propose changes at the AGM and you can vote at the AGM.

Proposed changes to the awards rules must be submitted in writing to the chair. They will be considered at the next AGM, which will be at FantasyCon next September. Note that you do not need to pay for FantasyCon to attend the AGM. If seconded, proposals will be put to a vote (usually after a bit of discussion).

The current system for making changes to the awards was decided following a membership-wide vote (here (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3184.0)). The awards constitution can be read here. (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/the-british-fantasy-awards-constitution-ii/) This is the relevant part:

Quote
Changes to these guidelines may only be made by a vote at the AGM of the British Fantasy Society, taken according to the same rules of procedure outlined in the BFS constitution. A committee vote may not be used to reverse a decision made at an AGM.

Hope that's helpful.

 Looking into it now Stephen!
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: CarolineC on December 05, 2013, 12:35:52 pm
I can't find my posts on this thread...are they appearing?

I can see them, Emma. This thread is now four pages long - perhaps you've missed out a page when you were looking through it?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 05, 2013, 01:04:41 pm
That link/survey is no longer available Stephen.

Sorry, I can't help with that – I wasn't on the committee then. But so far as the bit you're interested in, the rules had previously said:

Quote
Changes to this constitution may only be made (1) by a vote at the AGM of the  British Fantasy Society, taken according to the same rules of procedure outlined in the BFS constitution, or (2) by a formal vote of the committee of the British Fantasy Society. A committee vote may not be used to reverse a decision made at an AGM. An AGM vote may reverse a committee decision, but the committee decision remains effective until the current awards have been presented. The online version of the constitution must be updated at the earliest opportunity with any changes made, and any significant changes should be notified to the membership through Prism.

This was changed to:

Quote
Changes to these guidelines may only be made by a vote at the AGM of the British Fantasy Society, taken according to the same rules of procedure outlined in the BFS constitution. A committee vote may not be used to reverse a decision made at an AGM.

I'm not certain why it was changed, but presumably it was to limit the power of the committee, and keep it firmly in the hands of members at the AGM. Maybe also to prevent changes being made in the middle of an awards cycle?

Marion and Ramsey were among the five-strong team who proposed the change, so they may be able to explain it better.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Peter Coleborn on December 05, 2013, 02:05:14 pm
Although Allyson and I are Facebook friends I did not see any of her posts regarding the proposal to rename one of the BFS awards. FB is *not* the ideal forum to have such a discussion.

And if people want to influence BFS policies -- whatever policies -- become a member and argue from within the tent.

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 05:52:16 pm
'Although Allyson and I are Facebook friends I did not see any of her posts regarding the proposal to rename one of the BFS awards. FB is *not* the ideal forum to have such a discussion.'

As I said ...members/people considering rejoining ...find it difficult for many reasons to post here. I certainly have my reasons which I will not bring up on a Joel post.

'And if people want to influence BFS policies -- whatever policies -- become a member and argue from within the tent.'

I'll look into rejoining from NZ. But ...I should be able to bring anything up, look at all the information given, and discuss it here, whilst considering that.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: jim mcleod on December 05, 2013, 06:05:38 pm
With all due respect, and I like the idea a lot, but maybe it would be better to wait a little, till emotions are quieter, to decide the best way to commemorate Joel? Whether an award, or a publlication, or what. Just a suggestion.

I agree completely, this thread is in danger of becoming tipping over into something nasty. 
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 06:56:30 pm
We are discussing it sensibly. It has been suggested that we discuss it on this forum and that is what we are doing.

Emma. Yes ....the constitution is here..
http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/the-british-fantasy-awards-constitution-ii/

But then there are threads saying changes are 'here' and 'here.' It really needs to be written out properly again.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Peter Coleborn on December 05, 2013, 09:31:46 pm
'Although Allyson and I are Facebook friends I did not see any of her posts regarding the proposal to rename one of the BFS awards. FB is *not* the ideal forum to have such a discussion.'

As I said ...members/people considering rejoining ...find it difficult for many reasons to post here. I certainly have my reasons which I will not bring up on a Joel post.

'And if people want to influence BFS policies -- whatever policies -- become a member and argue from within the tent.'

I'll look into rejoining from NZ. But ...I should be able to bring anything up, look at all the information given, and discuss it here, whilst considering that.

I can't imagine why anyone finds it difficult to post anything on the BFS forum. My comment is that a thread on FB isn't a true discussion because threads vanish all too quickly and, indeed, not everyone with something to contribute is going to be a FB friend. Surely the best place to have an active discussion about BFS issues is on the BFS forum. (And I have no idea what your reasons are, and if not relevant to the discussion there is no need to bring them up here.)

My comment about being in the tent is that one can only affect BFS policies by being a member. That does not preclude anyone from joining in with suggestions. Otherwise these forums would be open only to BFS members, which they are not -- anyone can post their views.

As Stephen (I think it was him) said, policy changes are made at the AGM. This raises another issue: how many members should attend an AGM in order to change anything? I don't mean the minimum needed to made a quorum as indicated in the constitution -- I mean a greater representation of the membership. Perhaps postal or online ballots need to be considered in the future to validate AGM decisions.

And if anyone re-news their membership they'll receive copies of the BFS anthologies (while stocks last). 


Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 05, 2013, 11:34:04 pm
'As Stephen (I think it was him) said, policy changes are made at the AGM. This raises another issue: how many members should attend an AGM in order to change anything? I don't mean the minimum needed to made a quorum as indicated in the constitution -- I mean a greater representation of the membership. Perhaps postal or online ballots need to be considered in the future to validate AGM decisions.'

Good point. IF I do rejoin I'd probably never be able to get over from New Zealand for an AGM/EGM so does that leave me out of the voting process on issues raised at these meetings? Especially if the wording changes at the meeting. Discussions could be held on here and at the AGM and then send it to a postal/online vote. If we had postal/online voting would that not be better AND we would not have to wait years (two in the case I'm talking about) a very, very long time.  If a postal vote and an online vote happened ALL the membership would be covered. Whenever I've been at the AGM it always seems such a rushed affair because of the number of issues to deal with on the day.

And this is where you could get perhaps people coming to the forum. List the proposals etc...people talk about..and at the AGM. Send a postal/electronic vote and get all involved.

Voting for something at the AGM/before an Xmas party in London leaves a lot of members out. Although electronic voting was included this last time.

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3114.0

'Members unable to attend the EGM in person will be able to vote electronically.' No postal vote? Could be sent out with the journal.

How can anything be worked out against a show of hands and electronic voting?

Does/has electronic voting happened for an AGM? I've only ever seen a hands up (outmoded) vote with members attending on the day.

And how do we send in our nominations? By electronic post!

Who is on the committee? What posts are vacant? And no I can't volunteer. I'm doing enough as it is for the horror genre with being Chair of Stoker Collections with the HWA. :)

Where are the minutes of the last AGM? Are they published online? If not ...Have the members who could not attend Fantasycon been sent a copy?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 12:14:00 am
With all due respect, and I like the idea a lot, but maybe it would be better to wait a little, till emotions are quieter, to decide the best way to commemorate Joel? Whether an award, or a publlication, or what. Just a suggestion.

I agree completely, this thread is in danger of becoming tipping over into something nasty.  

 Jim, we'll all be staying calm & reasonable. This is about Joel, it's highlighted some aspects that is due some consideration too.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 08:52:01 am
Not many members post on this forum. When I mentioned it on facebook it got over 50 positive responses. Many from writers we all know. Whether they are members or not I can't say....hence it would be good to have a vote on it.

I think most of the AGM regulars do post here, at least every now and then. I can see why so many of your Facebook friends clicked like - it was a very sweet idea, and no one had yet explained why we might not want to do it. When later on you posted on Facebook to say the BFS committee wasn't keen, it looks like there were more people saying they agreed with us than saying we'd got it wrong (though of course privacy settings may mean I'm getting a misleading impression).
If it's proposed and seconded at the oM, there will be a vote, don't worry. I might be wrong about the outcome. You've got nine months to build support for the proposal. Lots of new people might shrug off their hangovers and turn up at next year's AGM (which would be very welcome) and vote it through. I'm just saying that it might be a good idea for you to explore other options, especially if you already think a year is too long to wait, because renaming a BFS award can't possibly happen any sooner than that, and might not happen even then.

 I'm just catching up on this thread.
 Stephen, my fb privacy is open so every post I comment on can be viewed via my wall if that helps.
 As for what the majority of the writing community are pushing for, I've seen for myself what an impact Joel Lane had. As a close friend he meant a lot to me & so many. For the genre an award named after Joel would obviously be greatly appreciated, the BFS is the ideal place to have this.
 It would also show great respect to push this forward, using the technology we have at our disposal. I personally have experience with forming online polls & consolidating the data, even making an app that members could download & be transferred straight to a poll...anything is possible & I strongly believe that tech like this can be utilised in so many ways as to benefit the BFS, I would happily volunteer to make this possible.
 Posts on social networks that are used daily seem more convenient to access & share our views. I'm sure most of us saw fb explode on the morning following Joel's death. We all saw the outpouring of love, the tributes, the quotes from his various works...doesn't this all show us just how important he was to the genre?
 If we showed a massive effort to make this happen AND improve the accessibility of our society I'm sure our membership numbers would boost massively. I'm sure of it. We've all seen the decline in renewals & New memberships, it's not good. We need to be so much more than a convention once per year, we need to be the go-to place for writers & readers alike. I would happily use my skills to make this happen if I were to be included.
 Joel has actually showed us the unity issues we have in the genre. We should show our appreciation & support while people are still here, what better recognition of this would there be to give the community what they so surely desire?

 Now, I'll catch up with the rest of the thread. I just wanted to reply to your post directly before I went on...we need to look at the community as a whole, not just the wishes of our members.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 06, 2013, 09:11:15 am
With regard to keeping the conversation civil, it would be good if we could keep the re-writing of posts using the edit function down to a minimum, out of respect for other forum users. It's frustrating to compose a careful reply to a post and then discover that new paragraphs have been inserted into the post to which you're responding.

If those in favour of the proposal feel a vote of the entire membership would be more appropriate instead of an AGM vote, it's quite possible to propose that under the current rules. Just make that part of the proposal to the AGM. For example:

"I propose that a membership-wide vote be taken during October to decide whether a fifth British Fantasy Award should have a male writer's name attached to it. The purpose of this proposal is to cement the society's reputation for institutional sexism."

You may decide on slightly different wording, of course.

Emma, no, that doesn't allow people who are not your Facebook friends to see private threads that you have commented on. I'm not bothered about seeing them, I'm just making the point that one can't choose to discuss things privately and then complain that people aren't listening.

If you want use your skills to contribute to the society, that would be very welcome indeed. There's a list of vacant positions here. (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3635.0) Sounds like you'd be well suited to either of the available positions.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 09:38:52 am
I've just been looking at the vacancies oddly enough!

 I know myself that it would take up most of your time Stephen, I just thought that I could try to help.

 I know it would mean a lot to the community at large & we can show our acknowledgement to them by making this possible...I really think it would strengthen us all on the whole.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 09:40:28 am
"I propose that a membership-wide vote be taken during October to decide whether a fifth British Fantasy Award should have a male writer's name attached to it. The purpose of this proposal is to cement the society's reputation for institutional sexism."

You may decide on slightly different wording, of course.'

There was no need for that flippancy, Stephen. We are talking about Joel Lane here also. I man we all admired and loved very much.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 09:41:34 am


If those in favour of the proposal feel a vote of the entire membership would be more appropriate instead of an AGM vote, it's quite possible to propose that under the current rules. Just make that part of the proposal to the AGM. For example:

"I propose that a membership-wide vote be taken during October to decide whether a fifth British Fantasy Award should have a male writer's name attached to it. The purpose of this proposal is to cement the society's reputation for institutional sexism."

You may decide on slightly different wording, of course.



 Rereading this bit, have I missed a post?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 10:00:29 am
"I propose that a membership-wide vote be taken during October to decide whether a fifth British Fantasy Award should have a male writer's name attached to it. The purpose of this proposal is to cement the society's reputation for institutional sexism."

You may decide on slightly different wording, of course.'

There was no need for that flippancy, Stephen. We are talking about Joel Lane here also. I man we all admired and loved very much.

 
 
 We don't need to define by gender at all. We all know that there are more males in this genre...that doesn't mean anyone is purposefully defined by that.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 10:04:55 am
'With regard to keeping the conversation civil, it would be good if we could keep the re-writing of posts using the edit function down to a minimum, out of respect for other forum users. It's frustrating to compose a careful reply to a post and then discover that new paragraphs have been inserted into the post to which you're responding.'

You can always check back and see if you have covered everything. But yes I understand.

I was trying to keep it in one place for your reply ...........and look forward to that reply.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 10:12:33 am
Knowing you personally Allyson I know that you wouldn't define by gender, I don't know why it was quoted...

 
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 12:16:47 pm
I have to say that I feel a little uncomfortable with what was said...I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out that way Stephen.
 
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 02:15:13 pm
I find it very insensitive. And within it the repetition of the same objection. A better example could have been chosen.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 03:06:26 pm
As an overseas member I would have to pay £60 ( twice that of the U.K. ) so for that I can't vote at the AGM (no electronic/postal vote in place yet)  journals that come out now and again. No wonder the membership is complaining (journals) and I saw some on this forum saying recently is it worth it for £30? ...........and I ask again how many members are in the BFS currently?

Do we have minutes anywhere on this site...(the last AGM perhaps) and regularly posted each year?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 06, 2013, 03:14:29 pm
Emma, if it made you uncomfortable to see Allyson's proposal worded that way, that's fine - it should. That's exactly why I'm against it. As awards administrator, I am *very* uncomfortable at the thought of how horribly sexist our awards would look if this proposal should pass.

Anyway, my advice is to focus here on how to shape your proposal, discuss with supporters which particular award to focus your effort on, and form a plan for getting the vote out at the AGM. Decide whether you want to have it voted on at the AGM, or if you want the AGM to approve a membership vote. Decide who will propose it, who will speak in favour of it, whether you'll offer funding. Consider the objections, and how you might counter them.

If you're genuinely interested in changing the way in which the rules of the awards can be changed, as opposed to just looking for a shortcut for this proposal, I'd suggest starting a new thread. Here it's a distraction. You can't change that part of the rules any sooner than you can change any other part.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 03:17:13 pm
Stephen, where is the wording itself from Allyson? Which page?
 I saw something about it brought up early on in this thread...can't remember who said it.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 03:25:34 pm
'Emma, if it made you uncomfortable to see Allyson's proposal worded that way, that's fine - it should.'

Please don't associate me with your example..

Three times you have mentioned your own gender concerns once would have been enough but to have then wrapped it up in that example...well words fail me.

My proposal is a BFS Collection Award in Joel's name.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 03:30:41 pm
Emma, if it made you uncomfortable to see Allyson's proposal worded that way, that's fine - it should. That's exactly why I'm against it. As awards administrator, I am *very* uncomfortable at the thought of how horribly sexist our awards would look if this proposal should pass.

Anyway, my advice is to focus here on how to shape your proposal, discuss with supporters which particular award to focus your effort on, and form a plan for getting the vote out at the AGM. Decide whether you want to have it voted on at the AGM, or if you want the AGM to approve a membership vote. Decide who will propose it, who will speak in favour of it, whether you'll offer funding. Consider the objections, and how you might counter them.

If you're genuinely interested in changing the way in which the rules of the awards can be changed, as opposed to just looking for a shortcut for this proposal, I'd suggest starting a new thread. Here it's a distraction. You can't change that part of the rules any sooner than you can change any other part.

 Actually Stephen, I've just realised what you've said.
 1. Why address me when Allyson has asked what you were inferring?
 2. I've paid for my joint membership only yesterday, I have PAID towards the society's funding already! So, I will have to pay for what exactly? Does everyone in the BFS pay each time a new award is created? NO.
 3. As for the old show of hands voting I say that we need something more reliable, more precise. How could I attend the Open Night in my late friend's honour when there is no wheelchair access?!
 4. As a member of this society for the past four years I find this somewhat insulting. You have directly addressed me. Why? I asked, but I'm not the person feeling slighted by your comment...

 From what you've just stated, it appears that you had already made up your mind on this matter. Why did you not state this earlier? There are some of us still grieving for the loss of a great member of your society. Please bear that in mind.  
 
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 03:32:15 pm
'Emma, if it made you uncomfortable to see Allyson's proposal worded that way, that's fine - it should

My proposal is a BFS Collection Award in Joel's name.

 I second that motion.
 Thank you Allyson.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 03:36:57 pm
Emma, if it made you uncomfortable to see Allyson's proposal worded that way, that's fine - it should. That's exactly why I'm against it. As awards administrator, I am *very* uncomfortable at the thought of how horribly sexist our awards would look if this proposal should p

 Gender does not come into this, the massive influence & respect does however.
 I also do not agree on a seperate thread...the title is 'Proposing an award named for Joel Lane' & that is precisely what I am trying to talk about.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 03:39:36 pm
I should add there are so many things wrong with making grieving friends feel uncomfortable I don't know where to begin.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 04:28:24 pm
Why can we not work through this civilly?
 There is no need for this from a society I support.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: frank on December 06, 2013, 04:37:31 pm
Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 04:40:23 pm
Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.

 I fully agree Fran!
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 04:42:50 pm
If this truly is a matter of the majority, not the minority, then this supports what we are saying Stephen.
 Do members voices count?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 04:51:07 pm
I rather things be done (whatever the "things" are) on merit rather than because of gender imbalance. However, Stephen is quite right in highlighting this gender imbalance in the naming of our awards and I think this is an area that can (should) be addressed.
 

 This quite clearly shows that Allyson Bird did not instigate any kind of gender-related post.

 Now, I really think that the intention & meaning of this thread is being side-lined to say the least...we should have a say.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: LeeH on December 06, 2013, 05:41:37 pm
I'm also against the naming of the award after Joel, though I agree we should honour his memory in some way. It was I that decided we would have the tributes at FantasyCon next year, for example.

There are a number of reasons I am against this proposal, though like every other member, my vote counts only once. One reason is the matter of having yet another award named after a man - this has been covered a lot in this thread already, of course. I honestly believe that this would send out completely the wrong message to our members and potential members and to the genre community as a whole. We already have 4 awards named after men - and I am stunned we weren't raked over hot coals the last time we did this. To do it again would, I feel, be unconscionable.

There is another reason I am against it. If we were to name one of the awards after Joel, I fear this would set a precedent, and If we did it now, there would be pressure to do it every time a respected or loved member of our community died. With 15 awards presented each year, that's potentially a lot of named trophies - it would be unwieldy, and I think it would undermine the professionalism we are striving for with our awards.

However, as stated, mine is only one vote. If the members decide they do want to do this, then the procedure is clear. And yes, it takes a long time, but no-one - not me, not Stephen, not the Chair, not the President, not the membership en masse - has the authority to take a short cut.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on December 06, 2013, 05:45:44 pm
Wow, this has got unpleasantly personal. If people think I'm the problem in this discussion, I'm happy to bow out. I've done my job. I've explained what the rules are. I've explained how you can go about changing them. You know I'm not going to ignore them. You also know why I'm against this proposal. At the moment I can't think of anything further to add to my comments on these issues, and many of the recent comments are I think answered by posts earlier in the thread. Over to you.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 06, 2013, 06:04:43 pm
Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.

I agree with that.
Although I have long been against naming BFS awards after *any* people,  I am persuaded that, if we do have awards named after people,  Joel Lane, as I remember him, transcends any concerns about their suitability - and we are in an area where the 'rusty etiquette and protocol of what is  permittable' are indeed irrelevant. And I am also speechless at a gender issue being raised in this context.

Edited for grammar!
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 06:19:44 pm
'And I am also speechless at a gender issue being raised in this context. ' Agreed Des.


Merit. Merit. Merit. And the society should not be afraid of being attacked... it can defend itself. Especially over Joel. As Ramsey said...'I do think naming an award for Joel would honour both his memory and the Society. As well as a fine fiction writer, Joel was one of the most perceptive critics the field has ever seen.'

We honour excellence!

You can't not do it just because someone might complain or it is too an 'unwieldy' process. One thing at a time. And as you said the committee does not speak for all. It wasn't a unanimous decision about the gender issue in the recent committee's decision in relation to Joel/male was it?

The awards named after males... it just happens to have worked out that way...nobody has done this deliberately and you can't always worry about how the society is perceived. If the members want it they should have it.

And please for the love of something or other could someone tell us who is on the committee? I have asked.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: LeeH on December 06, 2013, 06:53:33 pm
And please for the love of something or other could someone tell us who is on the committee? I have asked.

It's no secret - everyone is listed on the BFS website: http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/about-the-bfs/contact-the-bfs/
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Peter Coleborn on December 06, 2013, 06:56:32 pm
Allyson, go to the BFS website -- committee details are there.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 06:57:52 pm
Thank you, Lee. I never said it was ...just wanted pointing in the right direction as I usually go straight into the forum.

Thank you, Peter ....much appreciated!
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 07:17:59 pm
'Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.'

Well said and expresses the feeling of many members who support the award for Joel. The support is on facebook. Many do not like to come into the forum.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: LeeH on December 06, 2013, 07:31:18 pm
Perhaps we should have a for/against item in the next Journal. One member who is in favour of the proposal to write a piece about why they are in favour, and another to write a piece about why they're not - let's put it in the society journal, rather than have most of the debate on a non-member's Facebook page, where most members won't see it... Debate is healthy.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 06, 2013, 07:40:22 pm
The support is on facebook. Many do not like to come into the forum.

I haven't been on Facebook for about six months and I do not intend to return it - although I do miss many friends from that part of my life. It is a shock to hear that some people do not like to come on the official  BFS Forum, where, as Peter pointed out on this thread, should be the natural venue for all members and interested non-members to discuss BFS business ....

And, because Peter is now acting membership secretary and despite hardly ever seeing any forum queries - before today - being answered by committee members other than Stephen in his helpful role of awards administrator, I have decided to stay with the BFS while the new management find their feet. Not that my decision is particularly important in the scheme of things.

Meanwhile, I think we need from the new management some transcendent statesmanship or vision regarding this thread's particular debate.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 06, 2013, 07:56:13 pm
Quote
- let's put it in the society journal...

That sounds like kicking it into the long grass. This forum is more immediate and might give us a better chance to have the new Joel award by the next Fantasycon, if that's what members want.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: LeeH on December 06, 2013, 08:03:50 pm
Rather than an attempt to kick it into the long grass, it was a suggestion that would put the issue in front of the majority of the membership, rather than the half dozen or so members and non-members that are contributing to this thread. The forum *is* more immediate, but if you truly want the views of the members to be taken into consideration you have to take the proposal to the members, rather than hope they'll turn up.

As for making it happen by next FantasyCon, unfortunately, the society's constitution does not allow for that possibility, as has been previously mentioned.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: CarolineC on December 06, 2013, 08:11:37 pm
Meanwhile, I think we need from the new management some transcendent statesmanship or vision regarding this thread's particular debate.

I was just about to say (and I've said this on Ally's post on Facebook too), James Barclay has said on Ally's FB post that the committee is looking at possible options for ways to honour Joel. I definitely think now is the time perhaps for everyone to step back from this discussion for a while and see what comes out of that. People have put their points across - on here and on Facebook - so why not let's wait and see what the outcome of the deliberations are? Then, we can comment on what's been decided - whether we agree or disagree.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 06, 2013, 08:14:40 pm
As for making it happen by next FantasyCon, unfortunately, the society's constitution does not allow for that possibility, as has been previously mentioned.

I thought someone was suggesting a members' electronic vote had worked in the past to by-pass the constitution. But as your statement above is categorical, your suggestion for the journal is possibly a better one than this forum - as long as the journal is timely.
Thanks for your answer.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 06, 2013, 08:21:33 pm

I was just about to say (and I've said this on Ally's post on Facebook too), James Barclay has said on Ally's FB post that the committee is looking at possible options for ways to honour Joel. I definitely think now is the time perhaps for everyone to step back from this discussion for a while...

I agree, Caroline, but dismayed that he didn't first come to this thread on the official BFS forum to say whatever he needed to say.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 08:22:26 pm
Yes that was yesterday, after the previous statement that the committee did not want to take it forward....Perhaps something has changed.

With all respect Caroline, and as Lee has said ...debate is healthy. I think many do not want to be told not to discuss what we want to discuss.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 08:23:28 pm
Des...'I thought someone was suggesting a members' electronic vote had worked in the past to by-pass the constitution. '

I'd like to know more about that.

Peter C 'As Stephen (I think it was him) said, policy changes are made at the AGM. This raises another issue: how many members should attend an AGM in order to change anything? I don't mean the minimum needed to made a quorum as indicated in the constitution -- I mean a greater representation of the membership. Perhaps postal or online ballots need to be considered in the future to validate AGM decisions.'

Good point. IF I do rejoin I'd probably never be able to get over from New Zealand for an AGM/EGM so does that leave me out of the voting process on issues raised at these meetings? Especially if the wording changes at the meeting. Discussions could be held on here and at the AGM and then send it to a postal/online vote. If we had postal/online voting would that not be better AND we would not have to wait years (two in the case I'm talking about) a very, very long time.  If a postal vote and an online vote happened ALL the membership would be covered. Whenever I've been at the AGM it always seems such a rushed affair because of the number of issues to deal with on the day.

And this is where you could get perhaps people coming to the forum. List the proposals etc...people talk about..and at the AGM. Send a postal/electronic vote and get all involved.

Voting for something at the AGM/before an Xmas party in London leaves a lot of members out. Although electronic voting was included this last time.

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3114.0

'Members unable to attend the EGM in person will be able to vote electronically.' No postal vote? Could be sent out with the journal.

How can anything be worked out against a show of hands and electronic voting?

Does/has electronic voting happened for an AGM? I've only ever seen a hands up (outmoded) vote with members attending on the day.



Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: CarolineC on December 06, 2013, 08:33:04 pm
With all respect Caroline, and as Lee has said ...debate is healthy. I think many do not want to be told not to discuss what we want to discuss.

Well, yes, it is .. as long as that debate IS healthy. But sometimes this thread seems to be boiling over into something a little unhealthy with unfortunate aggression creeping in (I'm trying not to say from which side here - I'm trying to be a little diplomatic!). I just feel that, if things are being discussed at committee level, unless there's something new to add to the discussion there isn't any point in continuing to go over old ground.

Don't get me wrong, Ally - I'm on your side here. I really do think there needs to be some kind of permanent BFS memorial to Joel - whether that's a named award or something else. I also think the gender issue Stephen brought up earlier is a nonsense. But that's my own personal view - I may be right and I may be wrong. I just don't want to see this thread descend into bickering. All I'm saying is .. now the committee has heard the views, let's see what they come up with. Then, we can comment on their proposal - good or bad.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 09:15:51 pm
Much appreciated and understood Caroline.

But there are a few points/questions to be discussed and we've been discussing them calmly....for instance... If I rejoin (£60 for being overseas) can I have a vote at the AGM? Electronic or postal? I will not be able to travel from New Zealand next year. Voting on a proposal for an award for Joel? (if that can't be done earlier actually by online/postal voting).

Actually that is a good point Des. Why can't we have a proposal Dec/Jan and have an online/postal voting process (postal can go out with the journal) and have it sorted out in a reasonable length of time.

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: LeeH on December 06, 2013, 09:39:36 pm
Why can't we have a proposal Dec/Jan and have an online/postal voting process (postal can go out with the journal) and have it sorted out in a reasonable length of time.

Because what you're proposing is a change to the constitution, and that can only be done at an AGM. I thought this had been covered, already?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Emma Audsley1 on December 06, 2013, 09:52:07 pm
Wow, this has got unpleasantly personal. If people think I'm the problem in this discussion, I'm happy to bow out. I've done my job. I've explained what the rules are. I've explained how you can go about changing them. You know I'm not going to ignore them. You also know why I'm against this proposal. At the moment I can't think of anything further to add to my comments on these issues, and many of the recent comments are I think answered by posts earlier in the thread. Over to you.

 It did seem to get personal, from all sides. I still feel that gender shouldn't have been thrown in in that manner though. I was addressed directly, though I was not the one it was aimed at in the first place.
 I do not appreciate it, neither do I feel as though my direct question has been answered. I won't pretend that I also didn't feel upset at this Stephen, I am. I'm none the wiser when I've been addressed, wait for a response & no one comes back until it's been talked over away from the forum.

 This really did not have to go in this direction.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 06, 2013, 09:54:16 pm
Where is it in the constitution that we can't have what I've suggested?

here..?

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/about-the-bfs/the-constitution-of-the-british-fantasy-society/

or in general notes where ever they are on the site. Link provided by Stephen earlier.

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/the-british-fantasy-awards-constitution-ii/

or here in a forum post...

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2075.0

It needs to be all in one place, also. It is very confusing...Am I missing something with everything not being in a proper written updated constitution...
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Jen on December 09, 2013, 03:13:09 pm
Or if sticking Joel's name on something is what people want, do it on the BFS story comp instead? That wouldn't need an AGM vote would it? And it covers both his interest in short fiction and his encouragement of new talent.  So the BFS/Joel Lane Prize for Short Fiction, kinda thing.

Sorry, not currently a member, shutting up now.   ;)
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 09, 2013, 03:20:21 pm
Or if sticking Joel's name on something is what people want, do it on the BFS story comp instead? That wouldn't need an AGM vote would it? And it covers both his interest in short fiction and his encouragement of new talent.  So the BFS/Joel Lane Prize for Short Fiction, kinda thing.

Sorry, not currently a member, shutting up now.   ;)

That sounds like a brainwave to me. :)

Sorry, just realised that my previous post is more relevant in this  thread than the one I put it in:

It's just a question of what to do with a situation where we have an unprecedented upsurge of feeling worldwide up and down the spectrum of luminaries and fans toward an active and popular member of our Society who is known in many circles as a significant fiction writer, poet, literary critic, activist, visionary and friend.
If I may be allowed one more suggestion. Have a timely vote in January and if members want an award named after Joel, then we shall call that award the Joel Lane award by some sort of 'common law' and then it is rubber-stamped at the next available AGM.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Peter Coleborn on December 09, 2013, 03:23:21 pm
Or if sticking Joel's name on something is what people want, do it on the BFS story comp instead? That wouldn't need an AGM vote would it? And it covers both his interest in short fiction and his encouragement of new talent.  So the BFS/Joel Lane Prize for Short Fiction, kinda thing.

Sorry, not currently a member, shutting up now.   ;)

Good idea Jen.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 09, 2013, 06:25:13 pm
Or if sticking Joel's name on something is what people want, do it on the BFS story comp instead? That wouldn't need an AGM vote would it? And it covers both his interest in short fiction and his encouragement of new talent.  So the BFS/Joel Lane Prize for Short Fiction, kinda thing.

Sorry, not currently a member, shutting up now.   ;)

Sorry Jen. 'Sticking Joel's name on something,' Named after a competition? Not enough ....Joel was a giant in the genre.

Ligotti on Joel..
'The death of Joel Lane is indeed a sad loss, not only for those who knew him personally (a number that unfortunately I cannot count myself among) but also for ghost and gothic literature. Indeed, his contributions to these genres elevated their literary standing for over twenty-five years. All appraisal of this species of writing is now lessened by his absence. I recall marveling at the enviable and especially the urbane quality of his fiction in British fanzines as early as the 1980s, when he appeared in such publications as David Sutton and Stephen Jones’s Fantasy Tales and anthologies including Karl Edward Wagner’s Year’s Best Horror Stories. As I’ve remarked in interviews and elsewhere, I’ve always had a special admiration and appetite for British horror and ghost fiction, and Joel Lane was a master among his peers in that country. I also admired Joel as a literary critic. Among several examples of his critical acumen I relished was his essay on Robert Bloch’s contribution to the Cthulhu Mythos in the novel Strange Eons. This consideration of what is perhaps the best of Bloch’s novels stirred me to read and admire this work, which I had acquired from its publisher (Stuart Schiff’s Whispers Press) but had not yet read. On a personal note, I’ll always remember Joel’s extensive review of my omnibus collection The Nightmare Factory. His opening comment on the stories of mine that first appeared in this volume was simply the following: “They are excellent.” Coming from Joel, I felt confident that these new stories had succeeded, and a number of them have been since counted among my better works. I regret that I never communicated the appreciation and respect I held for him throughout his career.'
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 09, 2013, 06:29:30 pm
Rosanne Rabinowitz has put a list of tribute blogs at the bottom of her piece....also.

http://rosannerabinowitz.wordpress.com/2013/12/07/joel-lane-1963-2013-theres-always-a-link-between-deprivation-and-fantasy/

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Jen on December 09, 2013, 07:16:42 pm

Sorry Jen. 'Sticking Joel's name on something,' Named after a competition? Not enough ....Joel was a giant in the genre.

So was James White and the BSFA & Interzone have no problem honouring him with a story comp.

I will freely admit that I've never seen the point in slapping anyone's name on an award, no matter how well loved and respected they were and I personally think there are better ways the BFS could do Joel tribute but if the majority of members want his name on something then there is the option of the story comp as a workable compromise if a named award is untenable.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 09, 2013, 07:18:13 pm
Or if sticking Joel's name on something is what people want, do it on the BFS story comp instead? That wouldn't need an AGM vote would it? And it covers both his interest in short fiction and his encouragement of new talent.  So the BFS/Joel Lane Prize for Short Fiction, kinda thing.

Sorry, not currently a member, shutting up now.   ;)

Sorry Jen. 'Sticking Joel's name on something,' Named after a competition? Not enough ....Joel was a giant in the genre.

Ligotti on Joel..
'The death of Joel Lane is indeed a sad loss, not only for those who knew him personally (a number that unfortunately I cannot count myself among) but also for ghost and gothic literature. Indeed, his contributions to these genres elevated their literary standing for over twenty-five years. All appraisal of this species of writing is now lessened by his absence. I recall marveling at the enviable and especially the urbane quality of his fiction in British fanzines as early as the 1980s, when he appeared in such publications as David Sutton and Stephen Jones’s Fantasy Tales and anthologies including Karl Edward Wagner’s Year’s Best Horror Stories. As I’ve remarked in interviews and elsewhere, I’ve always had a special admiration and appetite for British horror and ghost fiction, and Joel Lane was a master among his peers in that country. I also admired Joel as a literary critic. Among several examples of his critical acumen I relished was his essay on Robert Bloch’s contribution to the Cthulhu Mythos in the novel Strange Eons. This consideration of what is perhaps the best of Bloch’s novels stirred me to read and admire this work, which I had acquired from its publisher (Stuart Schiff’s Whispers Press) but had not yet read. On a personal note, I’ll always remember Joel’s extensive review of my omnibus collection The Nightmare Factory. His opening comment on the stories of mine that first appeared in this volume was simply the following: “They are excellent.” Coming from Joel, I felt confident that these new stories had succeeded, and a number of them have been since counted among my better works. I regret that I never communicated the appreciation and respect I held for him throughout his career.'

Well, yes, on reading it again, "sticking Joel's name on something" does not strike the right tone at all.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 09, 2013, 07:28:02 pm
....I personally think there are better ways the BFS could do Joel tribute but if the majority of members want his name on something then there is the option of the story comp as a workable compromise if a named award is untenable.

I think the intention is for something recurrent like the Karl Edward Wagner award who was a BFS convention loved figure whom I knew and who also died quite young.

I would be grateful myself to hear of any alternative honours of a recurrent nature as I have never been keen on awards named after people - but I do genuinely think Joel, more than anyone, transcends any such objections.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: CarolineC on December 09, 2013, 09:39:29 pm
Yes, I did actually suggest on Ally's initial Facebook post the short story competition as a possible way to honour Joel. In fact, I wrongly assumed this was what Ally was suggesting too at first. I don't know if this would require the same kind of AGM-only decision that the BFAs need?

It seemed to me that renaming the short story competition after Joel would be a great way to honour him. He was always keen to help new writers, so this would seem to me to be a good way to honour him. I believe - when I tagged Allen in Ally's FB post - Allen liked the idea too (though I may be remembering this incorrectly - best ask Allen!).

I'm not sure what your objection to this idea is, Ally? You say "it's not enough". But this would be an annual thing, where his name would be read out each year at the awards - which is what you were seeking, is it not?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on December 09, 2013, 10:48:10 pm
....I personally think there are better ways the BFS could do Joel tribute but if the majority of members want his name on something then there is the option of the story comp as a workable compromise if a named award is untenable.

I think the intention is for something recurrent like the Karl Edward Wagner award who was a BFS convention loved figure whom I knew and who also died quite young.

I would be grateful myself to hear of any alternative honours of a recurrent nature as I have never been keen on awards named after people - but I do genuinely think Joel, more than anyone, transcends any such objections.


As Des says...and as I have shown with the Ligotti tributes (And the long list of others attached to Rosanne's tribute) Joel was a monumental figure in the genre. A giant in the genre and a genius in fact. He was a finalist in the BFS for Best Collection this year. Rob won with his fine collection. Joel will never....ever be able to be nominated again. The next best thing is to be honoured by having this award named after him.

Best Collection
From Hell to Eternity, Thana Niveau (Gray Friar Press)
Remember Why You Fear Me, Robert Shearman (ChiZine Publications)
Where Furnaces Burn, Joel Lane (PS Publishing)
The Woman Who Married a Cloud, Jonathan Carroll (Subterannean Press)

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3592.0

Yes Caroline Allen Ashley and Simon Marshall Jones  suggested the Best Short Story award to be named after him. I suggested Best Collection.   

PAGE ONE here I raised it....and my proposal on my fb page here 'Can we please have a The British Fantasy Society award for collection or short story named after Joel Lane ? To hear his name read out each year would mean a lot. He's influenced so many of us.' ...Now it has 70 positive 'likes' (no other way of saying it another way).
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Andrew Hook on December 10, 2013, 10:31:16 am
I've read all the posts here about the proposed award and have avoided commenting until now. I personally agree that Joel was a giant in the genre, and I think he would be astonished (and probably embarrassed) at the incredible outpouring of emotion that his death has created. However, I'm not convinced that having an award in his honour is the right thing to do. Without naming any names, I can think of at least another three writers/editors in our community who - when the time comes - it could also be argued that they would be deserving of a named award. For that reason alone, my personal opinion is that it would be more appropriate for Joel to be given the Karl Edward Wagner Lifetime Achievement award at this year's fantasy con (although this award is a committee decision only and cannot be voted on). Whilst I agree it would be great to hear his name at award ceremonies year after year I'm sure his memory will be raised in our memories and in our future discussions of the genre. I also think it would be something Joel would be more likely to approve of, rather than an ongoing thing (although I appreciate that's presumptuous of me to comment on his behalf).

Edited for spelling only.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Jec on December 10, 2013, 05:00:16 pm
Here, Here. I totally agree, Andrew.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on December 10, 2013, 05:08:16 pm
Here, Here. I totally agree, Andrew.

There does seem something wrong in this being cast as a conflict as to what is due or just for Joel from his co-members of the BFS. A simple timely vote would put an end to that.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Jec on December 10, 2013, 05:25:40 pm
Timely being the word...
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Ramsey Campbell on December 15, 2013, 02:23:44 pm
I've read all the posts here about the proposed award and have avoided commenting until now. I personally agree that Joel was a giant in the genre, and I think he would be astonished (and probably embarrassed) at the incredible outpouring of emotion that his death has created. However, I'm not convinced that having an award in his honour is the right thing to do. Without naming any names, I can think of at least another three writers/editors in our community who - when the time comes - it could also be argued that they would be deserving of a named award. For that reason alone, my personal opinion is that it would be more appropriate for Joel to be given the Karl Edward Wagner Lifetime Achievement award at this year's fantasy con (although this award is a committee decision only and cannot be voted on). Whilst I agree it would be great to hear his name at award ceremonies year after year I'm sure his memory will be raised in our memories and in our future discussions of the genre. I also think it would be something Joel would be more likely to approve of, rather than an ongoing thing (although I appreciate that's presumptuous of me to comment on his behalf).

Edited for spelling only.

It's a touching idea, Andrew, but surely that might lead to the KEW award being given as a memorial in future, which I don't think is a good idea - people who deserve it deserve to know they've received it, I think.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Andrew Hook on December 16, 2013, 09:57:07 am
Actually, Ramsey, your point makes a lot of sense. I suppose it was in my mind because the KEW award went to Iain Banks this year.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Ramsey Campbell on December 16, 2013, 10:15:44 pm
Actually, Ramsey, your point makes a lot of sense. I suppose it was in my mind because the KEW award went to Iain Banks this year.

I think Iain was chosen before he died, Andrew.
Title: Re: Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 03, 2014, 08:38:29 pm
I agree we should name one of the awards in his honour.

I was wondering whether there is any news from the BFS on this, i.e. a membership vote so that, if the vote is in favour, we can start calling, say, the Collection award under Joel's name in preparation for it being rubber-stamped at the next AGM?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on January 04, 2014, 10:58:03 am
No. As previously explained, the soonest this proposal can be given effect is at the next AGM. And it will only be considered there if a BFS member has sent a proposal in writing to the chair. No constitutional need to copy me in on any awards proposals, but it's a good idea.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 04, 2014, 12:05:57 pm
Not able to have a membership vote now then? Just to see the force behind any likely proposal at the next AGM?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on January 04, 2014, 02:26:57 pm
No, I won't be polling the membership on this proposal, "just to see". As previously explained, the last membership vote was overwhelmingly in favour of reserving changes to the awards rules to the AGM, so that is where the issue will be decided.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 04, 2014, 02:41:55 pm
But people need to see whether it is worthwhile at all to pursue this matter. I get the impression that many people think there is a huge groundswell for this simple change, although those impressions may be wrong, and need to be tested, I feel, prior the AGM. Is it solely your decision not to have a vote? If It is, probably best for me not to pursue it, but let others try.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: David A. Riley on January 04, 2014, 03:05:28 pm
But people need to see whether it is worthwhile at all to pursue this matter. I get the impression that many people think there is a huge groundswell for this simple change, although those impressions may be wrong, and need to be tested, I feel, prior the AGM. Is it solely your decision not to have a vote? If It is, probably best for me not to pursue it, but let others try.

As far as I can see, Des, there's nothing to stop you creating an online poll on this forum. You would just have to decide what questions to ask.

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 04, 2014, 03:11:26 pm
As far as I can see, Des, there's nothing to stop you creating an online poll on this forum. You would just have to decide what questions to ask.

Good thinking, David, if it wasn't just the same handful of people who came here!
A poll may work here if an official BFS email went out to all members announcing the poll on this BFS Forum, perhaps, but then it becomes more of an official membership vote which so far has been denied us.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 04, 2014, 03:19:50 pm
And I am inclined to let the whole matter drop as there would be nothing more negative than having a bitter row about this issue. Joel wouldn't have wanted that. It was just at the outset of this idea, it seemed such a simple thing to suggest - as many others have suggested and supported - but it all now seems to have been tied up in red tape that not even a membership vote is allowed to unravel.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on January 04, 2014, 05:19:15 pm
Other awards administrators would chuckle at the idea that the BFS awards are bound up in red tape. There's a simple procedure for changing them which was explained clearly in post #2 of this thread. If you want to change the rules, in this regard or any other, that's the way to go about it.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 04, 2014, 05:53:10 pm
Other awards administrators would chuckle at the idea that the BFS awards are bound up in red tape. There's a simple procedure for changing them which was explained clearly in post #2 of this thread. If you want to change the rules, in this regard or any other, that's the way to go about it.

This is what I mean by red tape. We have had no BFS reaction to the points in this earlier thread:

But months of online surveys/detailed discussions/online voting could be overturned at the AGM......in two mins. If say 10 - 40 odd people have said yes to something on an online vote and it goes to AGM there is no way a person should be able to walk into a room with 3 people (new proposal to replace it) say and overturn it.... the system is very flawed isn't it. Does anyone know, who is in another society, how it could be

I agree with you. I didn't really appreciate before now how the Society worked. My fault, really, too busy with creative writing etc.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on January 04, 2014, 06:35:59 pm
An online vote of the kind mentioned would indeed have no authority to change the rules or to tie the hands of the AGM. As explained in post #2, changes to the awards rules can only be made at the AGM.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on January 07, 2014, 12:13:31 am
'An online vote of the kind mentioned would indeed have no authority to change the rules or to tie the hands of the AGM. As explained in post #2, changes to the awards rules can only be made at the AGM.'

So the system is so rigid that nothing can be done. You can't even have an online vote to change the way things are done...write to all the members (you'd soon find out what they want I think).

James Barclay has said he will look into it all. I've contacted him and have been chatting to him. He said he'd look into it all after Christmas.....
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: JamesB on January 07, 2014, 11:04:45 am
Morning all,

Online proposals and voting seems a simple solution but has complexities. It is something the BFS committee is discussing (I've just emailed the group this morning for instance) but everyone is going to need to be a little patient. Also, Stephen is absolutely right in his posts because the current situation is exactly as he describes. He's not saying it can't ever be changed but there are many things to consider if online proposals are to be adopted because surely we all agree that they must be inclusive and democratic. And we had a democratic vote regarding awards changes and that decision cannot merely be set aside because of a particular single issue, however passionately it is being argued.

A few issues off the top of my head... can people make proposals anytime or will there be windows throughout the year? How will we contact members when a proposal is submitted? Where will the debate be hosted and what format will it take? How long should the debate window be open? How long will the voting window be open? How will any changes to original proposals be made following debate? Who will 'chair' the online debate? How does this effect the overall running of the BFS? Some might call this 'red tape' but if an online proposal system is set up it must have proper procedures and controls in place or it will be fatally flawed from the outset.

I understand there is a lot of emotional force behind this because of Joel Lane's death and the desire to remember him in an appropriate way, but we cannot allow those emotions to drive through an ill-thought out system of effecting change that ends up damaging the society in the long term.

I'm not trying to obstruct or delay or anything. My concern is to see anything that is done, done right.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 07, 2014, 12:24:07 pm
...but there are many things to consider if online proposals are to be adopted because surely we all agree that they must be inclusive and democratic. 

Thanks for coming to the BFS Forum to set out the BFS position on this issue.
I am sure many members will look forward to hearing the outcome. But, meanwhile, in the interests of what you say above, I personally would be grateful if the worries and suggestions put forward from this point onward of another thread (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3684.msg28814#msg28814") could be commented upon, i.e. matters that have been placed in sharp relief, I feel, by the points arising from this 'Joel Lane' thread.
Thanks again, Des
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on January 07, 2014, 07:04:47 pm
Yes. Des. Indeed. Much raised there...

Or before online voting is possibly put in place would it be possible to do the following? Isn't there a journal due to go out? Can't there be a slip of paper with a simple set of suggestions with voting options for a possible award for Joel Lane included? It goes to all members..you'd get more votes in than from some poorly attended AGM on a Sunday morning at Fantasycon.

Can we have the exact wording quoted from the minutes that says that can't be done?

How many attended last year's AGM? Those who could get there that is as obviously overseas members can't (no disabled access either).
What is the current size of the membership?

All simple questions ...still unanswered.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 07, 2014, 08:16:24 pm
What is the current size of the membership?

Peter mentioned on a different thread yesterday that it was just under 300.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Peter Coleborn on January 07, 2014, 09:09:58 pm
Yes. Des. Indeed. Much raised there...

Or before online voting is possibly put in place would it be possible to do the following? Isn't there a journal due to go out? Can't there be a slip of paper with a simple set of suggestions with voting options for a possible award for Joel Lane included? It goes to all members..you'd get more votes in than from some poorly attended AGM on a Sunday morning at Fantasycon.

Can we have the exact wording quoted from the minutes that says that can't be done?

How many attended last year's AGM? Those who could get there that is as obviously overseas members can't (no disabled access either).
What is the current size of the membership?

All simple questions ...still unanswered.

Adding more things to be done before the Journal goes out delays it even further. Membership numbers have been posted! I don't know how many attended the AGM as I didn't take minutes -- but there were more at the AGM than on here advocating a change to the rules. There were many overseas people at WFC and maybe some were BFS members -- if so they chose not to attend the AGM. Allyson, even if you did come to WFC and attended the AGM you couldn't vote one way or another, not being a BFS member. Renaming an award was not an issue at the last AGM and this is the issue you focussed on. And last year was the only time when disabled access was a problem so please don't go on and on about this one point. The convention in 2013 was not a British FantasyCon but organised by WFC, as you know!
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: allybird on January 07, 2014, 11:42:48 pm
What is the current size of the membership?

Peter mentioned on a different thread yesterday that it was just under 300.

Thank you Des. I've seen that now.

Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on January 07, 2014, 11:58:55 pm
Or before online voting is possibly put in place would it be possible to do the following? Isn't there a journal due to go out? Can't there be a slip of paper with a simple set of suggestions with voting options for a possible award for Joel Lane included? It goes to all members..you'd get more votes in than from some poorly attended AGM on a Sunday morning at Fantasycon.

No. See posts #2 and #10. But see also post #57 where I explain how to go about having your proposal decided by a membership vote, if that's what you really want.

Nb. Post #57 is also where I asked users to stop using the Edit function to add substantial amounts of additional material to posts. It's not cricket, and in the past we have removed or restricted users' access to the Edit function in such circumstances.

Can we have the exact wording quoted from the minutes that says that can't be done?

See posts #39 and #48.

How many attended last year's AGM? Those who could get there that is as obviously overseas members can't (no disabled access either).
What is the current size of the membership?

Neither of these things are relevant to this proposal. And as a matter of record, I said that there were access issues, I didn't say that there was no access.

James Barclay has said he will look into it all. I've contacted him and have been chatting to him. He said he'd look into it all after Christmas.....

I think you may have misunderstood James. Yes, he's taken your professed interest in constitutional change to be sincere and plans to look into it. But everything I have said in this thread stands, and will continue to stand.

So please stop trying to find a way to circumvent the awards constitution, suborn the AGM, get a different answer from somebody else, or have me overruled. It's a waste of your time, and more importantly a waste of mine!

I would in any case simply refuse to apply any changes that I did not consider to have been  made according to the awards constitution. Instead, prepare your proposal for the AGM. The thread contains much useful advice on that score.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 08, 2014, 07:42:34 am
I'd now rather wait for the outcome of the committee's discussions we were told about yesterday and hopefully some comments on this (to which the number at the  last AGM is relevant)...

...but there are many things to consider if online proposals are to be adopted because surely we all agree that they must be inclusive and democratic. 

Thanks for coming to the BFS Forum to set out the BFS position on this issue.
I am sure many members will look forward to hearing the outcome. But, meanwhile, in the interests of what you say above, I personally would be grateful if the worries and suggestions put forward from this point onward of another thread (http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3684.msg28814#msg28814") could be commented upon, i.e. matters that have been placed in sharp relief, I feel, by the points arising from this 'Joel Lane' thread.
Thanks again, Des

I would be in favour of removing all the awards named after people, as I said at outset, but if we do have named awards, I agree that Joel is worthy of such honour. I have been told there is a groundswell of membership in favour of this and that is why I have been supporting it. We would only know for certain with a vote. But I don't think we should argue with such a tone as in the last few posts on this thread, imo.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on January 08, 2014, 08:55:45 am
As far as the committee discussion goes, nothing can possibly happen there that will lead to this (or any other) awards proposal being implemented any sooner than at the AGM.

If anyone has anything further to say on the subject of bringing this proposal at this year's AGM, the thread can stay open. Otherwise, in my view, it has outlived its usefulness and I'm going to lock it.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Des Lewis on January 09, 2014, 04:14:54 pm
Just a last thought from me. There is a danger, without a vote, that a proposal such as the JL award will get through an AGM without membership support just as easily as it might not get through even if it has membership support, is there not?
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on January 09, 2014, 04:27:56 pm
Dear me, Des. I did say this thread would be locked unless it was being used to discuss bringing the proposal at the AGM. There is a more appropriate thread for discussing the supposed shortcomings of our current decision-making process, which you know full well I have no power to change.

As a moderator of the awards board I decided to transfer your post to a more appropriate place, where I was perfectly happy to discuss the issues raised, and yet you have decided to post it here again. So have it your way - thread locked.

If I hear from the chair that a BFS member has actually sent him this proposal I will re-open the thread to allow for discussion of it.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on September 02, 2014, 11:41:47 am
A final reminder that if you are a BFS member and you want to propose that any of the changes brought up in this thread be made to the British Fantasy Awards rules, you need to send your proposal in writing to the chair, Mark Barrowcliffe. The email address is chair@britishfantasysociety.org.

Given how little time remains before the AGM, please also copy the secretary James Dunn (secretary@britishfantasysociety.org) in on your email to the chair. He's putting together the agenda. Thursday evening at the latest, please.
Title: Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
Post by: Rolnikov on September 08, 2014, 09:28:37 am
Just to confirm, no proposal along these lines was made to the AGM.