Author Topic: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...  (Read 50150 times)

DFL

  • Guest
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 02:30:58 pm »
I agree with Caroline.

Mark wasn't part of that 'war', however, as I recall.

I feel sorry for Mark to some extent, as we all say things on sites on the spur of the moment - which we regret or express wrongly..

Also he has said recently (and publicly) he hasn't been fully fit.  If that's still the case, Mark, get well soon.
des

Offline allybird

  • Barbarian Monarch
  • ****
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
    • Allyson Bird website
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 03:47:31 pm »
No - Des. He has done it year after year. A little about the Shocklines post August 2008 is on the Ramsey board.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 03:49:11 pm by allybird »

Offline CarolineC

  • Elder Darkness
  • *****
  • Posts: 1040
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 05:07:17 pm »
>>Mark wasn't part of that 'war', however, as I recall.<<

Ah, no, I don't think he was, come to think of it. But I assumed allthingshorror's post was just a part of that again (which is why I totally ignored the remark to start with and haven't bothered to get involved in the "discussion" there).

But, yes, it's a shame if Mark is giving himself bad press through no fault of his own, through feeling out of sorts, or whatever.

There really shouldn't be this kind of "badmouthing" going on - it's just plain silly and childish. We're all on the same side, so to speak. It's very sad to see this happening really.
Please 'like' Frightful Horrors on Facebook
www.facebook.com/frightfulhorrorsuk

Offline FranklinMarsh

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 11:42:32 am »
I'd like to point out that not all of the Vault is (ahem) infantile. One of its primary functions was to document as many British Horror Anthologies as possible. Taking the Pan Books Of Horror Stories as a starting point, these anthologies would include all manner of stories and authors. I believe Mr Campbell himself commented on the fact that later editions became little more than excuses for sadism.
A few of us, perhaps of a kicking against the pricks bent, decided to venerate tomes of a deliriously trashy type, the sort of horror (and other) books looked down upon by the great and good.
Surely Jonny is entitled to his opinion? He didn't like the book. He said so. What's so wrong about that?

Offline Paul Campbell

  • BFS Reviewers
  • Thaumaturge
  • *****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 12:03:10 pm »
I believe Mr Campbell himself commented on the fact that later editions became little more than excuses for sadism.

Did I? Remarkable. Especially as I've never been a member of the Vault. Of course, there couldn't possibly be any other person in the country with the archaic obscure surname of 'Campbell'.

By all means, fall to your knees and give praise at the altar of killer crabs/dogs/pigs/cats/locust. But take off the rose-tinted glasses, please? Next you'll be quoting Smith, Saul and Hutson alongside James, Eliot and Milton.

And there's no need to bash recent horror fiction just because its covers and contents aren't dripping radioactive gloop.

After all, as I pointed out elsewhere today on another "General Discussion" thread, the sub-genre of Paranormal Romance is doing a good enough job in itself of killing off the horror section of our High Street bookshops without we ourselves chipping in with axes and chainsaws and nail-guns to give it a hand.

DFL

  • Guest
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2009, 12:52:56 pm »
There is fine balance in all arguments. We should not be polarised here.

A timely note from Joel here:
http://www.knibbworld.com/campbell-cgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=36765#POST36765

Offline FranklinMarsh

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 01:00:15 pm »
I believe Mr Campbell himself commented on the fact that later editions became little more than excuses for sadism.

Did I? Remarkable. Especially as I've never been a member of the Vault. Of course, there couldn't possibly be any other person in the country with the archaic obscure surname of 'Campbell'.

By all means, fall to your knees and give praise at the altar of killer crabs/dogs/pigs/cats/locust. But take off the rose-tinted glasses, please? Next you'll be quoting Smith, Saul and Hutson alongside James, Eliot and Milton.

And there's no need to bash recent horror fiction just because its covers and contents aren't dripping radioactive gloop.

After all, as I pointed out elsewhere today on another "General Discussion" thread, the sub-genre of Paranormal Romance is doing a good enough job in itself of killing off the horror section of our High Street bookshops without we ourselves chipping in with axes and chainsaws and nail-guns to give it a hand.


I forgot to type the word Ramsey (too much radioactive gloop) - apologies to both Mr Campbells, neither of whom have been members of the Vault. Incidentally Smith and Hutson are oft quoted by myself. I've never read the other three.
I don't bash recent horror fiction because I've never read any. I don't think Mr Mains was bashing recent horror fiction, just one particular book he'd read and didn't like.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 01:16:45 pm by FranklinMarsh »

Offline allybird

  • Barbarian Monarch
  • ****
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
    • Allyson Bird website
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2009, 01:13:19 pm »
Des - Mark Samuels should apologise, publicly to me, and to the British Fantasy Society for undermining the awards.

Offline Paul Campbell

  • BFS Reviewers
  • Thaumaturge
  • *****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2009, 02:09:44 pm »
There is fine balance in all arguments. We should not be polarised here.

A timely note from Joel here:
http://www.knibbworld.com/campbell-cgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=36765#POST36765


Joel Lane:
Quote
the Internet is no good for people. It represents a deterioration in social skills and language use. People should talk. The other day I saw two youngsters walking down the road, having a conversation, with their voices, and even looking at each other while they were doing it. I wondered if they belonged to some kind of retro historical society.

What Joel said!

Forget the 'cooling off' period, Des: the solution is simple - nix our computer monitors, grab our coats and catch a taxi/bus/train and let's all head to the pub/cafe/restaurant. You know, I originally didn't know if I was going to make it along to the Eibonvale Press book launch (featuring Allen Ashley's mammoth collection Once and Future Cities which I'm currently reading) this coming Thursday in Glasgow's Waterstones... but now I'm going to make a damn point of it, just so as I can experience some good old fashioned human conversation. And as it's likely there will be such sellar guys there as Ian Hunter, Jim Steel, Neil Williamson and Hal Duncan, it's pretty much a no-brainer.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 02:16:18 pm by Paul Campbell »

DFL

  • Guest
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2009, 02:19:59 pm »
- nix our computer monitors, grab our coats and catch a taxi/bus/train and let's all head to the pub/cafe/restaurant.

Agree completely.
But logistics, health, money etc. can prevent that for people.
Meanwhile, for good or ill, we have all got to 'know' each other on this screen...

Offline FranklinMarsh

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2009, 02:25:19 pm »
James, Eliot and Milton.


By the way, was that Henry or M R James? I have read Casting The Runes and A Haunted Dolls House.

Offline johnny mains

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2009, 03:53:12 pm »
My name is Johnny Mains and I'm the one who started the post at the VoE forum. It's been interesting to see how that initial post has evolved, encompassing three threads and has filtered into blogs etc. Not my intention, but these things happen.

I run a website. It's www.allthingshorror.co.uk. On it are some reviews. So for want of a better word, I call myself a reviewer. Doesn't make me a particularly good one, but I try to the best of my ability. I've reviewed a few books, a few films. I pick and choose what I want to, and review it when I want to. My feelings on Allyson Bird's collection, have up until that post, been kept private.

I had toyed with the idea of reviewing the book for the website, but thought that my comments would be left best unsaid after the incident on the VoE forum where people, including myself were having a pop at Allyson and others for blatant and excessive self-promotion of new works - when the site was predominantly aimed at all the 70's and 80's crap that I love so much. The situation resovled itself when Allyson and others left the forum. The site has evolved since, and newer works have filtered in and have a place.

As stated on the other thread, I met Allyson at the BFS Poe shindig, where I had a small chat with her, with the understanding that the incident had been put to bed, and by way of smoking the pipe of peace bought from her a copy of Bull Running. I started reading it on the train home that day with aims to writing an honest review on the book and finished it a couple of days later.

I was sad to see that a lady with clearly a lot of drive and energy had put more effort into her promotional skills than into her writing skills. Sure, the book a couple of  nice bits to it, but my main feeling of the book is now known. And I stand by that, and will stand by that. The book, is now no longer in my possession - I gave it to someone to read with the words 'You Have Been Warned.' I still haven't heard back from him if he's read it or not.

When the book was shortlisted I gave myself an all-knowing smile and said to myself, 'Ach, she'll never win.' Then she did. I was shocked, but not really that surprised.

She should be applauded for winning with her debut collection, but only if that win WASN'T due to excessive promotion, back rubbing and all of the other love-in's that go hand in hand with incestuous forums - (we all make 'friends' on these places and we like to feel we can help out whenever. It's that little selfish gene in us that makes us feel good by helping out someone else. And maybe getting a little favour returned in the future if the need arises) if that is the case, then Allyson should apologise to the BFS for bringing the awards into disrepute.

But why should I care? I'm not a member of the BFS, granted - but have given serious thoughts to joining it. What I have seen though - through months of watching this forum are people who tiptoe past each other, scared to say something out of place unless they are tagged as being 'not one of us'. Do you want characters here? Do you want diversity? Then let them have a voice, even if you don't agree with them. Instead of calling them 'unprofessional' - understand that they obviously feel very passionate about a genre that they are very heavily invested in, and only care about where the genre is going.

Who wants to be a part of a clique that only applauds sub-standard works of 'horror' or whatever other banner you care to put it under?  I want to be involved in a clique where only the finest works are recognised and applauded, and on the day Allyson's collection was not that finest work. Nepotism is great and good when it works well. When it goes wrong, you end up with this middle class, pretentious outrage that we currently find ourselves in.

I could be wrong. Allyson could break out into the mainstream with her talent and prove to the world that she has what it takes. I wish her every  success in doing so, but when you stand her work alongside noted female writers such as Sarah Pinborough, Tanith Lee, Mandy Slater, and going back to luminaries such as Mary Danby and Catherine Gleason- it is woefully lacking in style and substance and I feel that she will struggle.

Oh, and as this is my first post - hiya everyone.


‎"The duty of an enthusiast about a forgotten author is constantly to bring his name before the public, in hope that such forgotten writers and the treasures of their work may be rescued from undeserved oblivion" - Herbert van Thal

DFL

  • Guest
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2009, 04:02:23 pm »
I, for one, think this is a straightforward conflict of taste - not politics at all.

I stand by what I say and demonstrate on the VoE thread.  I voted for Meloy's book, but thought there were several contenders (Bird's included) who could easily have won on merit. My linked review of the Bird book is testimony of this stance.

I do agree, however, with Johhny, on the rich tapestry of views in life  - and nobody should be hung.
des

Offline johnny mains

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2009, 04:39:32 pm »
I, for one, think this is a straightforward conflict of taste - not politics at all.

You are correct. :)
‎"The duty of an enthusiast about a forgotten author is constantly to bring his name before the public, in hope that such forgotten writers and the treasures of their work may be rescued from undeserved oblivion" - Herbert van Thal

Offline Ellen Datlow

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2009, 04:53:59 pm »
It should be a matter of taste, but it becomes politics if one argues (as some have done) that something won because of favoritism, too much self promotion (whatever that means), or some other reason other than that the voters felt the winner was what they liked best.