Author Topic: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...  (Read 52772 times)

DFL

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2009, 05:03:39 pm »
Agreed, Ellen.
des

Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2009, 05:23:30 pm »
She should be applauded for winning with her debut collection, but only if that win WASN'T due to excessive promotion, back rubbing and all of the other love-in's that go hand in hand with incestuous forums - (we all make 'friends' on these places and we like to feel we can help out whenever. It's that little selfish gene in us that makes us feel good by helping out someone else. And maybe getting a little favour returned in the future if the need arises) if that is the case, then Allyson should apologise to the BFS for bringing the awards into disrepute.
...
Oh, and as this is my first post - hiya everyone.

Hi! Sorry for the confusion earlier - as Des said, I was indeed referring to Mark Samuels' comments when mentioning sour grapes, and your comments when saying we've all slated Oscar winners. I can see how doing both in the same paragraph could confuse.

Maybe it's worth mentioning that most BFS members seem to be completely oblivious of the forums - half the people who do regularly post on here aren't even members! So I don't think Allyson's win is down to her behaviour on this forum or any other.

I think it just comes down to one thing: taking her book to FantasyCon last year and selling loads of copies. Once the book was in the hands of a lot of members, that put it in the running. But people wouldn't vote for it if they hadn't enjoyed it.

I don't think any of this brings the awards into disrepute. They are voted for by the members, and the members vote for the best of the books they have read. That's a flaw, in that outstanding books that don't appeal to (or haven't been read by) the bulk of our members won't do well (like Yiddish Policemen last year, or Song of Time this year), but also a strength, in that we know exactly who picked each winner - our members are accountable for the choices they make.

Offline Paul Campbell

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2009, 07:05:16 pm »
Gee, I was hoping when I started up the When a Sub-Genre kills a Genre thread earlier today on the "General Discussion" page that it would have killed this thread.

Guess not.

Sounds to me like we're all in need of a good ale!  ;D

Offline johnny mains

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2009, 07:27:47 pm »
Have to ask...why would you want to kill a thread that you started Paul? 

Anyhoo, I found your comments about Vault rather entertaining by the way. It almost sounds like you suffer from 'acute' horror snobbery. A cursed disease, I'm sure. In its defence, the Vault for all of its sins is a valuable research tool, with thousands of cover scans, contents listings (where anthologies are concerned) and information on the publishing industry that without which, small presses and the stuff you now take for granted, would never have existed.

So for the minor infantile shenanigans that are abound, who gives a hoot? It's a gathering of people who love the genre who talk about anything and everything under the sun. Maybe you don't like the forum, because you're not centre of attention there with your big blacked out words?

‎"The duty of an enthusiast about a forgotten author is constantly to bring his name before the public, in hope that such forgotten writers and the treasures of their work may be rescued from undeserved oblivion" - Herbert van Thal

Offline Paul Campbell

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2009, 07:40:32 pm »
I found your comments about Vault rather entertaining by the way. It almost sounds like you suffer from 'acute' horror snobbery.

Far from it; indeed, my rails against the pretentious depths to which some of horror's 'mood fiction' has descended is so legendary that it got me banned from reviewing the Black Static periodical for the BFS's newsletter, Prism:D

So, anyway Johnny, you up for that pint or not?  ;D

Offline Paul Campbell

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2009, 08:04:34 pm »
And if further proof that I'm not a horror snob is needed, I love the Robinson 'Mammoth' books just as much as any of the guys and gals over on the Vault of Evil site:



BTW  I was going to put 'Robinson' in bold letters, but I know now Johnny that you're rather adverse to those "big blacked out words"!  ;)

Offline sandranorval

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2009, 08:32:50 pm »
It seems, Paul that you only like truly horrific horror. I'm still quaking at the site of the little grey bear in a giraffe costume  :o

Sandra  ;)
Sandra Norval

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DFL

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2009, 08:36:03 pm »
I love the Robinson 'Mammoth' books just as much as any of the guys and gals over on the Vault of Evil site:


I'm in 3 of those on the top shelf.

Offline johnny mains

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2009, 08:40:47 pm »
...I get mentioned in one of them.......  :D

Don't partake in Booze Paul, but I sure like a glass of orange juice every now and again. How do I upload pics on here?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 09:28:59 pm by johnny mains »
‎"The duty of an enthusiast about a forgotten author is constantly to bring his name before the public, in hope that such forgotten writers and the treasures of their work may be rescued from undeserved oblivion" - Herbert van Thal

Offline Peter Coleborn

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2009, 08:51:54 pm »
 Paul -- there's space for another two shelves on that wall. You are slipping, my man  :)

Offline johnny mains

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2009, 10:50:48 pm »
I see your Mammoths and raise you with this lot....  ;D




‎"The duty of an enthusiast about a forgotten author is constantly to bring his name before the public, in hope that such forgotten writers and the treasures of their work may be rescued from undeserved oblivion" - Herbert van Thal

Offline iamacanadian

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2009, 05:45:21 am »
I am a member of the BFS, I would have to take a aeroplane to the pub to join most of you lot, I did vote in both the long and short list ballots, but am completely incapable of making an informed decision about whose book is best as I am entirely illiterate (which makes being an Editor a tricky thing, I can tell you). I can't even tell what these words I'm typing say!

Someone help me! Please!

Oh yes: nearly forgot.

What's this here 'in-tar-net' everyone's rabbiting on about these days? It doesn't involve computers, does it? I hates those, I does!
Ian Alexander Martin; Proprietor, Atomic Fez Publishing


Offline marksamuels

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2009, 11:05:50 am »
Hello, my name's Mark Samuels...
 
I suppose I should make some sort of response regarding the fuss that's blown up over the remarks over on the Vault of Evil about Allyson's book, BULL RUNNING FOR GIRLS.
 
(1) The "oh it's all sour grapes" charge.
 
This has no bearing on the central point I made, namely: that Allyson's book was not a worthy winner, in terms of its intrinsic literary merit, of the BFS Best Collection award. As I've stated previously, I expected not to win. It's on record. Go and look at my blog. Had Paul Melloy, or Gary McMahon, or Stephen King won, I would not have felt so strongly as to make an adverse comment.
 
Constantly repeating the charge "it's sour grapes" until you hope it sticks is just Bulverism, & nothing more. I have been nominated four times in the past, and not won, but the winners in those previous instances were of a calibre where any fair-minded nominee could easily accept the result. The "sour grapes" charge is simply a means of deflecting the argument away from a discussion of Allyson's book and claiming any criticism I make is biased at source, irrespective of a reasoned consideration of the points raised.
 
(2) "voters felt the winner was what they liked best."
 
It may well be the book that the voters liked best, but then it's not really an "award" is it? Books aren't usually judged solely by their popularity except when viewed as commercial product, as with Dan Brown. Moreover, when it comes to book awards, one might imagine that they would not be conducted like political hustings. If the BFS is willing to allow this sort of campaigning then they are bound to end up with winners that are most successfully promoted----since promotional activities will win out over content on a popular vote. 
 
Admittedly, I do have a history of being irreverant towards awards. Mine's a healthy attitude, I think. Still, I'll congratulate where I think credit's due. I've congratulated people on winning awards (I enjoy seeing folk pleased as much as the next person), and this is the first time I've dared to speak up in public against a specific award winning book rather than talking in general about awards.
 
I am sorry if I have personally upset Allyson, but my criticism is directed at her book and the methods used to promote it. If expressing my view makes me her "enemy" as she described me elsewhere, again I'm sorry. I don't like to be the cause of upset. But I don't think BRFG deserved to win. Honest opinion, nothing more to it.
 
Mark S.

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2009, 11:30:17 am »
The "sour grapes" charge is simply a means of deflecting the argument away from a discussion of Allyson's book and claiming any criticism I make is biased at source, irrespective of a reasoned consideration of the points raised.

If you lose an award and then write about how the awards are all a fix people are going to say it looks like sour grapes. Whether the criticisms are justified don't make much of a difference... When losers in a competition moan about the system it looks like sour grapes. You know that. Of course it doesn't invalidate your points, but it makes you look like a sore loser.
 

It may well be the book that the voters liked best, but then it's not really an "award" is it?

Which awards aren't decided by votes, then? Whether it's the votes of a large academy or the votes of a small panel, an internet vote like the Gemmell or a panel like the World Fantasy Award, every award comes down to what a group of people think about something.

It's odd that people complain that Allyson's online behaviour has been obnoxious, yet credit it with winning her an award. If her behaviour has been so bad (and I'd agree she's been over-enthusiastic at times) surely she won the award despite that behaviour, not because of it?

DFL

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Re: Yet another reason the internet leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2009, 11:46:06 am »
Books have power not necessarily by their perfection but by a strong sense of emotion that permeates through them. I still stand by my review of BULL RUNNING in July.

In Mark's case, I do believe that it is not sour grapes, however it may appear.

In many instances in the past I have felt BFS winners have been unworthy of the award.  But I don't know enough about the subject to be certain so I don't say so. I presume Mark has studied Allyson's book to reach such a firm conviction.