Author Topic: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards  (Read 102386 times)

Offline Grafire

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #255 on: November 29, 2011, 06:31:35 pm »
Oh no!  We were so close!   We already agreed on the thousand-pound deal - don't shake our pockets for the pennies!

I have to go now to kickboxing class.  I'm going to accept the amendment as proposed by Steve and Charles. 

Would have really loved your consent on it Stephen.

Offline SAWatts

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #256 on: November 29, 2011, 06:39:35 pm »
Back again - school run went on a little tonight.

I really like the idea that there will be ongoing informal recommendations on the forums - genius :)

Then no additional round - members simply make their 3 choices in order of preference.

Re 2 rounds instead of 3 - am I right in thinking that we're starting later this year? I think time constraints would make 3 rounds difficult...

The awards admin can't be associated with any work - but I agree committee members should be.

Re PDFs - review experience make me think they need to be reader friendly :)

Sorry if I've missed anything...

I agree with Stephen that things like how we add up the 123s must be clear before the process begins - could we maybe go with the resolution and then have a working group to sort out the detail? We might then have something to bring to the EGM on that?

Just a thought.


Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #257 on: November 29, 2011, 06:40:45 pm »
My objection to your original proposal, Graham, was that it didn't explain how the shortlist would be decided, and your new one doesn't either, so my objection remains... The awards constitution has to say exactly what the rules are.

Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #258 on: November 29, 2011, 06:43:39 pm »
Back again - school run went on a little tonight.

I really like the idea that there will be ongoing informal recommendations on the forums - genius :)

Why, thank you.  8)

Then no additional round - members simply make their 3 choices in order of preference.

Re 2 rounds instead of 3 - am I right in thinking that we're starting later this year? I think time constraints would make 3 rounds difficult...

Not really, the recommendations process is normally open by now, but most of the recommendations would previously have been made in January and February (the process closing on February 14).

Offline charlesrudkin

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #259 on: November 29, 2011, 06:45:51 pm »
Stephen, can you redraft your original  proposal then because as it stands it is confusing.  
By informal round I am referring to your informal recommendations process. I thought that would have been clear.

As for the voting system, giving the awards administrator seems to be better than bringing  in a voting system that is still open to question. The voting system for collating the shortlist either needs to be a discretionary power given to the administrator or needs a separate vote. I guess I prefer the latter. What I don't think you can do is bundle is be as prescriptive as you are being. I mean if people are happy with the Eurovision system then fine, I'm not going to get hung up on it

Hang on, an awards constitution?  Is this different from the BFS constitution. Or are we talking about a set of procedures, or what?  Surely we don't have a constitution for the awards, just for the society as a whole

You seem to have missed my point entirely about legitimacy. If the members vote in a system that lays out the general principles it automatically empowers the executive arm of the organisation, in this case the BFS committee and the awards administrator, to draw up a set of procedures and mechanisms to run the society and the awards. Which can be subsequently challenged by the membership. What we need is agreement by the membership on a clear set of principles not a "clear awards constitution". The detail can be decided later and the AGM can hold those details to account next year.

Offline johnny mains

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #260 on: November 29, 2011, 06:45:57 pm »


Re PDFs - review experience make me think they need to be reader friendly :)




I think the PDF's would have to be the ones that were print ready and had been sent to the printers - so in effect, the closest you would get to finished book. Also a PDF of the front and back covers would also need to be supplied - or put up on external site for Jury members to view? Obviously the publishers who can afford to post several books out to the jury members may continue to do so, but a little consideration for the micro imprint please!! :D


‎"The duty of an enthusiast about a forgotten author is constantly to bring his name before the public, in hope that such forgotten writers and the treasures of their work may be rescued from undeserved oblivion" - Herbert van Thal

Offline charlesrudkin

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #261 on: November 29, 2011, 06:47:42 pm »
Oh, well Graham's running with the recommendation as is. It has my support. I think the EGM might be the place to discuss how we rank preferences, etc.

Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #262 on: November 29, 2011, 06:49:12 pm »
Hang on, an awards constitution?  Is this different from the BFS constitution. Or are we talking about a set of procedures, or what?  Surely we don't have a constitution for the awards, just for the society as a whole

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/the-british-fantasy-awards-constitution-ii/

Have a read and my proposal will probably seem much clearer! My proposal identifies the bits that would be changed, and then says what the new wording would be.

Offline charlesrudkin

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #263 on: November 29, 2011, 07:03:37 pm »
Yeah, but the trouble is that nobody in the BFS knows what's in the constitution and very few will bother  to read through it. Your proposal needs to be drafted in a way that factors in most voters do not have your background knowledge and are not going to rectify that situation. In other words, it's going to have to outline how you think a shortlist should be chosen without referring to precedent. Otherwise people are just going to get lost.

Anyway, what I suggest you do is put forward a counter-recommendation and get it on the ballot. There may be the needs for  some provision to explain why you object to the amended proposal by the working group and vice-versa.

Alternatively, you could take the amended proposal and put forward changes that you think might give the needed clarity to show how a shortlist is chosen. I think myself that this is clear already although we need more detail subsequently as I have already indicated. But that's true of your original proposal in that doesn't outline the exact process of how people will put forward their initial suggestions.

Offline charlesrudkin

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #264 on: November 29, 2011, 07:06:12 pm »
I agree with Sarah that the form of preferential voting, as well as Stephen's for informal recommendations, should be discussed at the EGM

Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #265 on: November 29, 2011, 07:23:01 pm »
Sorry, Charles but I've had enough - I'm going to follow Peter's advice.  :)

I think I've done well to resist the temptation to flounce this long, but Ranjna and the kids are really sad at how little time I've spent with them this week and I've got to call it a day on this thread.

Not to be presumptuous, but it goes without saying that if the working group would like any help at all with drafting the new rules, before or after the vote, Graham has my email address. Same goes for you, Sarah: if you need any help redrafting the constitution to take account of the proposals later on, just get in touch.

I would just point out one last thing: three years ago the BFS committee made a series of changes to the awards, including the introduction of new awards, and we all agreed on them. Or thought we did.

But they weren't precisely drafted before being voted on, and indeed were not actually incorporated into the awards constitution, and within a few months the committee was fighting like cats and dogs over what we had actually agreed to.

(And guess who was at the middle of that..?  :-[  ::))

So that's why I'm so concerned with getting this stuff sorted out now, because I know what can result from unclear, unwritten rules.

Offline Colin (Black Abyss)

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #266 on: November 29, 2011, 08:32:31 pm »
Blimey, well that was all fun...just one thing, why do we have awards?

Offline johnny mains

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #267 on: November 29, 2011, 08:38:31 pm »
Well, I'm currently using mine as a toilet roll holder until I buy a new holder. It's doing a beter job than I expected and managed to hold most of the roll...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 08:41:52 pm by johnny mains »
‎"The duty of an enthusiast about a forgotten author is constantly to bring his name before the public, in hope that such forgotten writers and the treasures of their work may be rescued from undeserved oblivion" - Herbert van Thal


Offline Pyroriffic

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Re: Overhaul of the British Fantasy Awards
« Reply #269 on: November 29, 2011, 10:14:28 pm »
Well... um.

Eloquent, I know. But hey. Hear me out, even if I've only been a member for less than a week.

I got to meet many of your members at alt.fiction earlier this year and have been waiting for the opportunity (and the spare cash!) to sign up. I think the idea of the BFS is a great one and I have been very keen to get behind you as an entity and show my support by paying the membership fees. Then...

...I read through this thread.

Oh my word, thinks I. What in the name of all that is good and holy have I just done? I read the thread again. This can't be right, I think. These people are supposed to be a society. They're supposed to support one another. Instead, they're arguing and Disagreeing Politely over this issue. Don't do that, people, don't... ah, here's someone saying that this is creating the wrong impression... nooooo! They're off again!

So here is my humble opinion.

I think that yes. Yes, you should have BFS Awards. What the criteria for being eligible for those awards should be is obviously a matter for debate. How they are judged should be pretty simple and it's not too hard to set up an online poll for such purposes. So yes. Keep the awards. But only if they can be discussed in a manner befitting a literary society and not snatched around like children's playthings.

I have joined the BFS because I genuinely wanted to put my financial support and enthusiasm behind what you're doing. I've been a member of the society for less than a week (as previously stated, but I think it's important) and do you know something? Right now, I'm genuinely wondering whether I haven't just made a big mistake. I don't have a lot of spare cash and I've been really looking forward to officially signing up. But I'm here now and I'm going nowhere. You're stuck with my opinion and all that.

The same may not possibly be true of other new or potentially new members. And if you've driven new people off, or alienated one another over this matter, then what will be the point of this discussion at all? For there to be BFS Awards, there needs to be a BFS to award them, right?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:19:00 pm by Pyroriffic »
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