Author Topic: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane  (Read 69311 times)

Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2014, 12:05:57 pm »
Not able to have a membership vote now then? Just to see the force behind any likely proposal at the next AGM?
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Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2014, 02:26:57 pm »
No, I won't be polling the membership on this proposal, "just to see". As previously explained, the last membership vote was overwhelmingly in favour of reserving changes to the awards rules to the AGM, so that is where the issue will be decided.

Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2014, 02:41:55 pm »
But people need to see whether it is worthwhile at all to pursue this matter. I get the impression that many people think there is a huge groundswell for this simple change, although those impressions may be wrong, and need to be tested, I feel, prior the AGM. Is it solely your decision not to have a vote? If It is, probably best for me not to pursue it, but let others try.
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Offline David A. Riley

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2014, 03:05:28 pm »
But people need to see whether it is worthwhile at all to pursue this matter. I get the impression that many people think there is a huge groundswell for this simple change, although those impressions may be wrong, and need to be tested, I feel, prior the AGM. Is it solely your decision not to have a vote? If It is, probably best for me not to pursue it, but let others try.

As far as I can see, Des, there's nothing to stop you creating an online poll on this forum. You would just have to decide what questions to ask.


Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2014, 03:11:26 pm »
As far as I can see, Des, there's nothing to stop you creating an online poll on this forum. You would just have to decide what questions to ask.

Good thinking, David, if it wasn't just the same handful of people who came here!
A poll may work here if an official BFS email went out to all members announcing the poll on this BFS Forum, perhaps, but then it becomes more of an official membership vote which so far has been denied us.
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Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2014, 03:19:50 pm »
And I am inclined to let the whole matter drop as there would be nothing more negative than having a bitter row about this issue. Joel wouldn't have wanted that. It was just at the outset of this idea, it seemed such a simple thing to suggest - as many others have suggested and supported - but it all now seems to have been tied up in red tape that not even a membership vote is allowed to unravel.
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Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2014, 05:19:15 pm »
Other awards administrators would chuckle at the idea that the BFS awards are bound up in red tape. There's a simple procedure for changing them which was explained clearly in post #2 of this thread. If you want to change the rules, in this regard or any other, that's the way to go about it.

Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2014, 05:53:10 pm »
Other awards administrators would chuckle at the idea that the BFS awards are bound up in red tape. There's a simple procedure for changing them which was explained clearly in post #2 of this thread. If you want to change the rules, in this regard or any other, that's the way to go about it.

This is what I mean by red tape. We have had no BFS reaction to the points in this earlier thread:

But months of online surveys/detailed discussions/online voting could be overturned at the AGM......in two mins. If say 10 - 40 odd people have said yes to something on an online vote and it goes to AGM there is no way a person should be able to walk into a room with 3 people (new proposal to replace it) say and overturn it.... the system is very flawed isn't it. Does anyone know, who is in another society, how it could be

I agree with you. I didn't really appreciate before now how the Society worked. My fault, really, too busy with creative writing etc.
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Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2014, 06:35:59 pm »
An online vote of the kind mentioned would indeed have no authority to change the rules or to tie the hands of the AGM. As explained in post #2, changes to the awards rules can only be made at the AGM.

Offline allybird

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #129 on: January 07, 2014, 12:13:31 am »
'An online vote of the kind mentioned would indeed have no authority to change the rules or to tie the hands of the AGM. As explained in post #2, changes to the awards rules can only be made at the AGM.'

So the system is so rigid that nothing can be done. You can't even have an online vote to change the way things are done...write to all the members (you'd soon find out what they want I think).

James Barclay has said he will look into it all. I've contacted him and have been chatting to him. He said he'd look into it all after Christmas.....
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 01:48:40 am by allybird »

Offline JamesB

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #130 on: January 07, 2014, 11:04:45 am »
Morning all,

Online proposals and voting seems a simple solution but has complexities. It is something the BFS committee is discussing (I've just emailed the group this morning for instance) but everyone is going to need to be a little patient. Also, Stephen is absolutely right in his posts because the current situation is exactly as he describes. He's not saying it can't ever be changed but there are many things to consider if online proposals are to be adopted because surely we all agree that they must be inclusive and democratic. And we had a democratic vote regarding awards changes and that decision cannot merely be set aside because of a particular single issue, however passionately it is being argued.

A few issues off the top of my head... can people make proposals anytime or will there be windows throughout the year? How will we contact members when a proposal is submitted? Where will the debate be hosted and what format will it take? How long should the debate window be open? How long will the voting window be open? How will any changes to original proposals be made following debate? Who will 'chair' the online debate? How does this effect the overall running of the BFS? Some might call this 'red tape' but if an online proposal system is set up it must have proper procedures and controls in place or it will be fatally flawed from the outset.

I understand there is a lot of emotional force behind this because of Joel Lane's death and the desire to remember him in an appropriate way, but we cannot allow those emotions to drive through an ill-thought out system of effecting change that ends up damaging the society in the long term.

I'm not trying to obstruct or delay or anything. My concern is to see anything that is done, done right.

Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #131 on: January 07, 2014, 12:24:07 pm »
...but there are many things to consider if online proposals are to be adopted because surely we all agree that they must be inclusive and democratic. 

Thanks for coming to the BFS Forum to set out the BFS position on this issue.
I am sure many members will look forward to hearing the outcome. But, meanwhile, in the interests of what you say above, I personally would be grateful if the worries and suggestions put forward from this point onward of another thread could be commented upon, i.e. matters that have been placed in sharp relief, I feel, by the points arising from this 'Joel Lane' thread.
Thanks again, Des
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Offline allybird

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #132 on: January 07, 2014, 07:04:47 pm »
Yes. Des. Indeed. Much raised there...

Or before online voting is possibly put in place would it be possible to do the following? Isn't there a journal due to go out? Can't there be a slip of paper with a simple set of suggestions with voting options for a possible award for Joel Lane included? It goes to all members..you'd get more votes in than from some poorly attended AGM on a Sunday morning at Fantasycon.

Can we have the exact wording quoted from the minutes that says that can't be done?

How many attended last year's AGM? Those who could get there that is as obviously overseas members can't (no disabled access either).
What is the current size of the membership?

All simple questions ...still unanswered.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 07:35:41 pm by allybird »

Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #133 on: January 07, 2014, 08:16:24 pm »
What is the current size of the membership?

Peter mentioned on a different thread yesterday that it was just under 300.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 08:18:12 pm by Des Lewis »
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Offline Peter Coleborn

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2014, 09:09:58 pm »
Yes. Des. Indeed. Much raised there...

Or before online voting is possibly put in place would it be possible to do the following? Isn't there a journal due to go out? Can't there be a slip of paper with a simple set of suggestions with voting options for a possible award for Joel Lane included? It goes to all members..you'd get more votes in than from some poorly attended AGM on a Sunday morning at Fantasycon.

Can we have the exact wording quoted from the minutes that says that can't be done?

How many attended last year's AGM? Those who could get there that is as obviously overseas members can't (no disabled access either).
What is the current size of the membership?

All simple questions ...still unanswered.

Adding more things to be done before the Journal goes out delays it even further. Membership numbers have been posted! I don't know how many attended the AGM as I didn't take minutes -- but there were more at the AGM than on here advocating a change to the rules. There were many overseas people at WFC and maybe some were BFS members -- if so they chose not to attend the AGM. Allyson, even if you did come to WFC and attended the AGM you couldn't vote one way or another, not being a BFS member. Renaming an award was not an issue at the last AGM and this is the issue you focussed on. And last year was the only time when disabled access was a problem so please don't go on and on about this one point. The convention in 2013 was not a British FantasyCon but organised by WFC, as you know!