Author Topic: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane  (Read 66146 times)

Offline frank

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2013, 04:37:31 pm »
Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.

Offline Emma Audsley1

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2013, 04:40:23 pm »
Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.

 I fully agree Fran!

Offline Emma Audsley1

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2013, 04:42:50 pm »
If this truly is a matter of the majority, not the minority, then this supports what we are saying Stephen.
 Do members voices count?

Offline Emma Audsley1

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2013, 04:51:07 pm »
I rather things be done (whatever the "things" are) on merit rather than because of gender imbalance. However, Stephen is quite right in highlighting this gender imbalance in the naming of our awards and I think this is an area that can (should) be addressed.
 

 This quite clearly shows that Allyson Bird did not instigate any kind of gender-related post.

 Now, I really think that the intention & meaning of this thread is being side-lined to say the least...we should have a say.

Offline LeeH

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2013, 05:41:37 pm »
I'm also against the naming of the award after Joel, though I agree we should honour his memory in some way. It was I that decided we would have the tributes at FantasyCon next year, for example.

There are a number of reasons I am against this proposal, though like every other member, my vote counts only once. One reason is the matter of having yet another award named after a man - this has been covered a lot in this thread already, of course. I honestly believe that this would send out completely the wrong message to our members and potential members and to the genre community as a whole. We already have 4 awards named after men - and I am stunned we weren't raked over hot coals the last time we did this. To do it again would, I feel, be unconscionable.

There is another reason I am against it. If we were to name one of the awards after Joel, I fear this would set a precedent, and If we did it now, there would be pressure to do it every time a respected or loved member of our community died. With 15 awards presented each year, that's potentially a lot of named trophies - it would be unwieldy, and I think it would undermine the professionalism we are striving for with our awards.

However, as stated, mine is only one vote. If the members decide they do want to do this, then the procedure is clear. And yes, it takes a long time, but no-one - not me, not Stephen, not the Chair, not the President, not the membership en masse - has the authority to take a short cut.
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Offline Rolnikov

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2013, 05:45:44 pm »
Wow, this has got unpleasantly personal. If people think I'm the problem in this discussion, I'm happy to bow out. I've done my job. I've explained what the rules are. I've explained how you can go about changing them. You know I'm not going to ignore them. You also know why I'm against this proposal. At the moment I can't think of anything further to add to my comments on these issues, and many of the recent comments are I think answered by posts earlier in the thread. Over to you.

Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2013, 06:04:43 pm »
Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.

I agree with that.
Although I have long been against naming BFS awards after *any* people,  I am persuaded that, if we do have awards named after people,  Joel Lane, as I remember him, transcends any concerns about their suitability - and we are in an area where the 'rusty etiquette and protocol of what is  permittable' are indeed irrelevant. And I am also speechless at a gender issue being raised in this context.

Edited for grammar!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 06:09:33 pm by Des Lewis »
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Offline allybird

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2013, 06:19:44 pm »
'And I am also speechless at a gender issue being raised in this context. ' Agreed Des.


Merit. Merit. Merit. And the society should not be afraid of being attacked... it can defend itself. Especially over Joel. As Ramsey said...'I do think naming an award for Joel would honour both his memory and the Society. As well as a fine fiction writer, Joel was one of the most perceptive critics the field has ever seen.'

We honour excellence!

You can't not do it just because someone might complain or it is too an 'unwieldy' process. One thing at a time. And as you said the committee does not speak for all. It wasn't a unanimous decision about the gender issue in the recent committee's decision in relation to Joel/male was it?

The awards named after males... it just happens to have worked out that way...nobody has done this deliberately and you can't always worry about how the society is perceived. If the members want it they should have it.

And please for the love of something or other could someone tell us who is on the committee? I have asked.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 06:24:07 pm by allybird »

Offline LeeH

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2013, 06:53:33 pm »
And please for the love of something or other could someone tell us who is on the committee? I have asked.

It's no secret - everyone is listed on the BFS website: http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/about-the-bfs/contact-the-bfs/
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Offline Peter Coleborn

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2013, 06:56:32 pm »
Allyson, go to the BFS website -- committee details are there.

Offline allybird

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2013, 06:57:52 pm »
Thank you, Lee. I never said it was ...just wanted pointing in the right direction as I usually go straight into the forum.

Thank you, Peter ....much appreciated!

Offline allybird

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2013, 07:17:59 pm »
'Stephen - with all due respect, I think it's rather inconvenient to throw up the issue of gender imbalance in awards when talking about Joel Lane in the same breath. I think Joel was splendidly vocal on this matter on many occasions. You have chosen an odd time to show concern about how the BFS might be perceived towards women authors in the genre, especially after failing to react so many times before. But that is another conversation for another time. I understand that you personally don't want this award, as is your right to say so. But surely the rusty etiquette and protocol of what is permittable and what isn't can be put aside to honour Joel's name. What's the point in having the BFS, if you can't name an award after a man like Joel. Everybody but a few people want this. Nobody in their right mind is going to question gender imbalance if you name the award after Joel. My God, he was at the forefront of arguing more female inclusion. I can't imagine there is one female author or reader who knew of Joel who would not want this.'

Well said and expresses the feeling of many members who support the award for Joel. The support is on facebook. Many do not like to come into the forum.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 07:38:25 pm by allybird »

Offline LeeH

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2013, 07:31:18 pm »
Perhaps we should have a for/against item in the next Journal. One member who is in favour of the proposal to write a piece about why they are in favour, and another to write a piece about why they're not - let's put it in the society journal, rather than have most of the debate on a non-member's Facebook page, where most members won't see it... Debate is healthy.
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Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2013, 07:40:22 pm »
The support is on facebook. Many do not like to come into the forum.

I haven't been on Facebook for about six months and I do not intend to return it - although I do miss many friends from that part of my life. It is a shock to hear that some people do not like to come on the official  BFS Forum, where, as Peter pointed out on this thread, should be the natural venue for all members and interested non-members to discuss BFS business ....

And, because Peter is now acting membership secretary and despite hardly ever seeing any forum queries - before today - being answered by committee members other than Stephen in his helpful role of awards administrator, I have decided to stay with the BFS while the new management find their feet. Not that my decision is particularly important in the scheme of things.

Meanwhile, I think we need from the new management some transcendent statesmanship or vision regarding this thread's particular debate.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 07:43:03 pm by Des Lewis »
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Offline Des Lewis

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Re: Proposing an award named for Joel Lane
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2013, 07:56:13 pm »
Quote
- let's put it in the society journal...

That sounds like kicking it into the long grass. This forum is more immediate and might give us a better chance to have the new Joel award by the next Fantasycon, if that's what members want.
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